Why does shabbat food have to be traditional ashkenazi food?

lamplighter

Thu, May 09 2024, 3:19 pm

I also cannot hear the intent in the OP.
You're saying you don't like the food, you don't want to serve it, you see no need to preserve mesorah of this kind.
Ok Lchaim. Eat what you want.
It IS a mesorah for many people and they DO like it so they DO serve it.
There are sources for many of the traditional foods, it isn't as simple minded as they had lots of potatoes in Russia so yay potato kugel. But you don't have to do anything you don't want to.

Raisin

Thu, May 09 2024, 3:25 pm

I have very rarely been to a shabbos meal with only traditional ashkenai food.

Usually there is some sort of mezze course (babaganous, hummus etc), we love pesto dip which is neither ashkenazi or sefardi. Often chicken soup. Often kugels but not always.

Make what you want...afaik only certain chassidic groups are so rigid about what is served on shabbos.

You can always mix it up - a really excellent kugel with an aromatic rice dish.

amother

Fuchsia

Thu, May 09 2024, 3:35 pm

Raisin wrote:

and salatim along with the dips are very very common!

Success10

Thu, May 09 2024, 3:37 pm

Off topic I guess, but in seminary I was introduced to apple crumble, sweet potato pie and carrot muffins being served as sides. Which in generations prior was considered dessert but the next generation didn't have patience to wait for the end of the meal so they started calling these things kugels instead. A fad that I'm still fond of...

Does anyone know if any of these foods could be called culturally "Ashkenazi" or anything for that matter?

amother

Thu, May 09 2024, 4:02 pm

Ruchel wrote:

Any food is as delicious as your skills

I disagree. Some cuisines are just not as good as others. I've traveled a lot and eaten a lot of ethnic food in pre-kosher days. For example, much of Central American food is very mediocre -- Mexican food is great and famous, much of the rest of it is very bland rice and beans. As another example, there's a reason Thai and Vietnamese food are famous and well liked, and Cambodian and Laos food are known to be bland and mediocre cuisines.

amother

Daffodil

Thu, May 09 2024, 4:08 pm

amother OP wrote:

So your point is to put down Ashkenazi food?

amother

Thu, May 09 2024, 4:14 pm

amother Daffodil wrote:

So your point is to put down Ashkenazi food?

No. I know of people who love it, and I know lots of people don't love it. Ashkenazi food is something that seems quite subjective.

I do think there are some objective truths in among world cuisines, such that it's not true that a particular dish is as delicious as the chef's skills.

amother

Peach

Thu, May 09 2024, 4:16 pm

amother Daffodil wrote:

So your point is to put down Ashkenazi food?

Apparently.

What you need to serve on Shabbos is fish and meat. Everyone interested can ask their lor if they need both or not and at which meals. The only other thing you need to do is make it different and more special than your weekday dinners. If your family likes a particular dish made with chicken or meat and you often make it for dinner in middle of the week, you wouldn’t want to serve that Friday night. Other than that let your imagination soar and prepare whatever you and your family enjoy.

Id just add that some great cooks I know make the most delicious Ashkenazi inspired Shabbos meals. Their Sephardic neighbors’ kids especially love the cholent and kugel Wink

ETA I realized I left out something when I wrote what the requirements are. You have to have something warm at lunch that was cooked before Shabbos and kept warm until you serve it.

amother

Lightcoral

Thu, May 09 2024, 4:17 pm

amother OP wrote:

I don’t agree. So much has to do with individual tastes. Also I know people who are amazing cooks and people who wouldn’t normally like that specific food do enjoy when a good cook prepares it. There are so many factors that make food good or bad.

b.chadash

Thu, May 09 2024, 4:17 pm

Most of the "traditional Ashkenazi foods" have a deeper meaning beyond just that they cooked what was available in Europe.

Gefilte fish was born out of the need to avoid bones and the issur of borer. Kugel comes from the word ugal which means round (even though we all make kugels in 9x13, traditionally they were round). It has to do with the cycle of life, similar to the reason a mourner eats an egg. Eggs with onion, and lukshin kugel also have some symbolism.

Most holidays have specific foods that are connected to that yom tov that have deeper symbolism.

There are sefarim and English books dedicated to ta'amei Haminhagim that explain the reason behind many of the customs and foods, and where they originated from.

That being said, these are not obligatory, and the main thing is to enjoy the Shabbos food.

There is an inyan to eat fish and meat on Friday night, and something hot (cholent) by day. Other than that, you are free to prepare and eat whatever your family likes.

However, many communities and families put an emphasis on the cultural aspect of Judaism, because it closely aligns with tradition. There is something comforting in the knowledge that we have special Shabbos food, and that Friday night dinner isn't just like any other weekday dinner. We have special foods.

As much as my kids wouldn't want to eat gefilte fish and cholent on a random Tuesday, they would be very unhappy if I didn't serve these foods on shabbos. If I ever try to skip the chicken soup, I get complaints from my kids. When people attend a simcha for the Shabbos seudos, or go to others as guests, there is something to having the familiar "tzura" of a Shabbos meal, where the menu is more or less familiar, as opposed to a completely random menu.

Last edited by b.chadash on Thu, May 09 2024, 7:25 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Wallflower

Thu, May 09 2024, 4:21 pm

All food is subjective. Its called a matter of taste for a reason.
I am Ashkenazi and I really dislike Mexican food and Indian food. Most shabbos meals I've been to outside of chassidish homes have some other foods mixed with traditional, including in my home. I personally don't like ethnic flavors but others do and enjoy it in my home.
Sorry it does sound like you think Ashkenazi food is objectively gross and your wondering if you could be validated in that opinion and in your desire to be free from serving such a gross food at your shabbos table.

amother

Thu, May 09 2024, 4:29 pm

b.chadash wrote:

Most holidays have specific foods that are connected to that yom tov that have deeper symbolism.

There are sefarim and English books dedicated to taamei Haminhagim that explain the reason behind many of the customs and foods, and where they originated from.

the simanim and honey cake on RH, dairy on shavuot... in brief, other holiday foods are so ubiquitous? I'm not aware of anything else...

Amarante

Thu, May 09 2024, 4:38 pm

b.chadash wrote:

Most of the "traditional Ashkenazi foods" have a deeper meaning beyond just that they cooked what was available I Europe.

Gefilte fish was born out of the need to avoid bones and the issur of borer.

.

Actually gefilte fish was literally the stuffing inside the larger fish - Gefilte literally means "stuffed" or "filled" in Yiddish.

At some point people decided the stuffing was better than the fish much like many people love the stuffing more than the turkey. Very Happy

Also herring has loads of bones and is widely eaten and until relatively recently people didn't buy filets of fish but bought whole fish which had bones.

But on the larger issue - no reason that it has to be traditional. Some people have very conservative food tastes and don't want to eat what they aren't familiar and comfortable with. Others find the traditional Ashkenazi dishes to be very unappealing.

FWIW, there are many modern "Jewish" cookbooks that do twists on traditional dishes.

amother

Peach

Thu, May 09 2024, 4:39 pm

amother OP wrote:

the simanim and honey cake on RH, dairy on shavuot... in brief, other holiday foods are so ubiquitous? I'm not aware of anything else...

What b. chadash said is 💯
A lot of the traditional foods have deeper meanings behind them. Gefilte fish, as a few people already said, was to avoid borer (the prohibition of selecting bad from good and separating it like when you remove small bones from fish). There are a lot of other traditional foods that have hidden meanings. It’s not always just a matter of this is what was available where they lived. That doesn’t mean you have to eat them, especially if you don’t enjoy them.

amother

Peach

Thu, May 09 2024, 4:45 pm

Amarante wrote:

Gefilte fish was literally the stuffing inside the fish, but did you ever wonder why they went through the trouble of removing the fish from inside the skin, removing the bones, grinding it, mixing it with more ingredients and then restuffing the fish? A tedious cumbersome job, I actually saw someone do that once. It was to avoid the prohibition of removing the bones.

(Chicken bones are larger and more clearly identifiable as a separate entity but I’m not here to write a discourse on the halachos of borer which are detailed and complicated.)

Amarante

Thu, May 09 2024, 4:59 pm

amother Peach wrote:

It was literally in a large fish which had bones.

And Ashkenazi cuisine is really very influenced by Eastern European foods. Many of the foods are quite similar and so I don’t think there is a mystical reason.

Stuffed birds including swans were a very typical feast dish and so was adapted in this way. My Bubbe make a cookie that was also made by Martha Stewart’s Polish grandmother. What is a kreplach except a version of a poerogi. Stuffed cabbage versus Halopches.

And since people eat fish with bones I am not understanding how it is somehow a taboo food.

flowerpower

Thu, May 09 2024, 5:09 pm

I understand you- since you didn’t grow up
With it you don’t understand the flavors. Growing up with Hungarian grandparents I love the traditional food on shabbos. I feel that it’s pure( no weird spices or junk in it) and look forward to shabbos meals all week. I hosted a real redneck( not jew- don’t ask why) recently who didn’t understand the chicken soup with kneidel and veggies hype and wouldnt even taste my warm crispy fluffy challah. My friend that is a bt didn’t understand cholent until it really grew on her. Now its her familys favorite dish. We eat certain foods because there is a mekor- a deeper meaning behind it. 99% of my shabbos meals are very traditional. That is how we like it. For example- its an inyan to eat eggs and onion so we serve egg salad every week. We serve it a vegetable salad( always different ones) or cut up veggies