Tuition Breaks and Tomchei Shabbos

Hashem_Yaazor

Tue, May 14 2024, 7:19 pm

amother Cobalt wrote:

Just to give you all a little peak behind the scenes. I have worked in 2 yeshiva financial offices. They all have today professional fundraisers and bring in much more donations annually than tuition. They like for you to believe that for their own interests, but they do not rely on Tuition only.

That is not true across the board.

chestnut

Tue, May 14 2024, 9:33 pm

amother Cobalt wrote:

Got it, so this means yeshivos aren't struggling and have more than enough money.
Just in tri state area or all over the US?

chestnut

Tue, May 14 2024, 9:40 pm

amother OP wrote:

Or the frequent visits to the urologist for one of their children who would be absolutely mortified if anyone besides the Dr knew that they were dealing with a weak urine flow and incontinence. In fact the only way that the parents were able to get the child to agree to see the Dr was by swearing that no one will find out.
Or fill in some other incredibly private situation.

It's mind boggling to me that you assume the parents are hiding a trip to Bermuda and not any private medical situation.

Do tuition committees know all Dr specialties by Dr names? How would they even know it's a pediatric or adult urologist? And how would they know which kid goes to this Dr?
As I mentioned in another thread (I think), can always black out the name and just note "Dr"

chestnut

Tue, May 14 2024, 9:48 pm

amother Apple wrote:

Make any discounts a loan and require it to be paid back over time.

Require parents to sign a document showing that they understand that taking an undeserved discount is stealing according to Torah, and if the school finds reason to believe that they were misled, they can (and will) take the parents to Beis Din.

Or let Hashem punish the cheaters and incentivize honesty.

And families whose financial situation isn't going to improve, how will they be paying off these loans for multiple kids?
Dealing with a Beis Din isn't free, time consuming, bad publicity, and the school might never find out they were lied to.
The last one hasn't been working that great for schools, apparently.

amother

Navyblue

Tue, May 14 2024, 10:16 pm

amother Eggplant wrote:

I think the schools that are asking for cc bills and bank statements are fancy schools that charge 25k+ in high school. The schools that cater to the real middle class crowd aren't asking for this. In the 5towns there's a wealthy school that definitely asks for these extras.

I’m the OP of the other thread and I’m not in the 5 towns and there’s no other schools around With a similar hashkafah. I’d be okay sending to a more bare bones or right wing school but my kid would not and I don’t want to risk turning her off Gd forbid.

amother

Navyblue

Tue, May 14 2024, 10:19 pm

boysrus wrote:

Please. Far fewer families are applying for aid because they just cant emotionally handle the invasion of their privacy. Thats all it is. And now more families who really needed aid are struggling more than ever. Good job tuition committee (sarcasm alert)

THIS.
It would be my absolute pleasure and honor to pay full tuition if I could. I’d much rather spend money on their Torah education than fancy vacations etc

B'Syata D'Shmya

Tue, May 14 2024, 11:15 pm

amother OP wrote:

Pesach time, there was a lot of discussion about tzedaka organizations and qualifications.
Posters were insisting that those who need are approved for Tomchei and other tzedaka organizations and no one gets turned away, there's plenty of money for all the needs.
And the only ones who don't get approved are those too embarrassed to ask.

Imo tuition breaks are a form of tzedaka. Less embarrassing maybe but still.
And yet, there are all these posts about the hoops jump through and the humiliation to get a tuition break.
Is Jewish education less important than meat and wine for Yom Tov?

I don't get it. There's enough money to make sure that every kollel family gets a new dress and suit and shoes (from expensive stores). But not enough to help every child get a Jewish education without killing the parents.

It's just horrifying how we expect parents to humiliate themselves for tuition.

Granted I'm coming from a perspective of 18 year old car held together by cable ties but prioritizing paying my reduced tuition as long as my car is drivable. I don't have luxuries but stop making tuition breaks a humiliating experience.

Ftr, we do get Tomchei Shabbos. And its amazing to me how respectful they are, careful of my dignity compared to schools when I pay a significantly fraction of tuition.

I think its that we dont just want a Jewish education, we want all the bells and whistles too (luxuries). We have plenty to ensure a Jewish education, but we want trips and expensive productions we want brand names etc. Does a school really need 25k to provide a quality Jewish education??

When a school gives a tuition break to a family that drives a new Lexus, goes to Cancun for Pesach and makes over the top simchas, they are allowed to question it. I agree that when a family like yours requests consideration, you deserve it. Unfortunately to ensure that all the families like yours get it, they set up (what you call) hoops. Those who deserve the consideration have no problems with the hoops. Or shouldnt.

B'Syata D'Shmya

Tue, May 14 2024, 11:24 pm

amother OP wrote:

Why would the cc info include which person was seeing the Urologist, perhaps its your grandmother you are taking? And the bill usually states Medical Practice, not Urologist. Come on, lets not exaggerate.
If there is an incredibly private situation, just blacken that line and leave the amount. I imagine they are just looking for the final number. They know what normal household expenses are (including incredibly private situations that are not as unique as you think).

Its mind boggling to think there is some nefarious plan at hand to uncover your family secrets. You trust this institution with educating your child, you can trust them with this too...

amother

Green

Tue, May 14 2024, 11:25 pm

chestnut wrote:

Many name their practices with their speciality and bill accordingly.

I.e Rockland Psych, Rockland Gastrointestinal associates, etc....

amother

Apple

Tue, May 14 2024, 11:30 pm

chestnut wrote:

My parents finished paying off my schooling after I already had a few children of my own.

B'Syata D'Shmya

Tue, May 14 2024, 11:31 pm

Cheiny wrote:

I don’t think you can make these generalizations that mostly no one is taking advantage, based just on whom you know. I know there are plenty of people who do indeed get breaks and they can certainly do without them, but they choose to prioritize maintaining their high lifestyle over paying full tuition.

It really is unfortunate for those who are truly needy and deserve the breaks. Those who take advantage make it bad for the rest. But Hashem sees all. The yeshivas aren’t fully equipped to always be able to weed out those who aren’t needy or deserving, from those who are…

I agree 100% but also know that schools can provide good quality Jewish education for less than 25K, they factor in the parents not paying.
Ask your Rav how much of your tuition you can take from your Maaser moneys, that might help.

But please, when you make an over the top simcha or the like, dont get upset when the school questions your petition for tuition consideration. And yes, tzaddikim get hurt with the reshaim.

amother

Green

Tue, May 14 2024, 11:37 pm

B'Syata D'Shmya wrote:

It isn't a nefarious plan, but it's one that is ripe for abuse both intentional and non -intentional.

There's a reason why privacy is so valued that it's protected both legally and halachically. Do you really think that we are smarter than the Torah?

It is also a humiliating and degrading practice. I believe our Torah discusses rhat as well.

It seems like we are slowly allowing our schools to create a new societal order where they get to govern every aspect of our adult lives, including policing adults, enforcing chumrahs, delegating what you can and cannot do in your own home. And now they get to manage our finances too!

We no longer need to have a Rav. The school have taken it upon themselves to be the Rav for their parent body. Nowadays, we sign our lives away when we send our kids to school.

We should change up our motto from that the Torah is our guide, to the schools are our guide. Their rules trump everything - trump your parenting, trump your Rav's decisions, and trump your personal life.

B'Syata D'Shmya

Wed, May 15 2024, 12:40 am

amother Green wrote:

Perhaps choose to live where you can send your child to a school that shtims with your values so the schools rules and standards won't be hard for you.
If your Rav and school are not in sync, you have a bigger problem than your credit card bills.
If you think your schools don't have Torah as it's guide, why are you sending your child to be educated there?

I know plenty of people who moved, giving up plum jobs and personal opportunities In order to give their child a Jewish education.

BTW, and for the record I'd have no problem giving my cc statements to my child's school.
Now that you know, perhaps pay cash for stuff you are embarrassed over...take out cash on your card.

chestnut

Wed, May 15 2024, 12:49 am

amother Green wrote:

Many name their practices with their speciality and bill accordingly.

I.e Rockland Psych, Rockland Gastrointestinal associates, etc....

So the tuition committee will see a GI practice on the cc statement. Oh the horror. Or just black out the specialty.
We're seriously splitting hairs here.

Last edited by chestnut on Wed, May 15 2024, 12:51 am; edited 2 times in total

chestnut

Wed, May 15 2024, 12:58 am

amother Green wrote:

Isn't asking how much you spend on vacations or simchas private? Why no outrage there?
Interestingly enough, schools that police adults and enforce chumros aren't the same that ask for cc statements, from what I understand.

amother

Melon

Wed, May 15 2024, 2:37 am

Husband lost job. I work almost 40 hours a week. I called the school for help. Cried to the administration. Shared how much I make an hour before taxes and how my health insurance, car insurance, electric bill plus rent is more than I make. He made 2/3s our income and that job had full insurance coverage that we now need to pay out of pocket for.
No discount. Was told I need to ask family for help. Did scholarship application for the fall. Had to provide CC, bank statements, list expensed, car make and model (one is over 12 years old!)
Still waiting to hear back.

And then I hear of families that have extras ask for a discount...
this is hopefully temporary but we need the help badly!! I am glad they ask for details but it is very violating. I just wish they opened up their books. How many administrators do they need and at what salaries? And hiring relatives who don't have credentials?