Aliya: where might we fit?

DVOM

Mon, May 27 2024, 7:04 am

Reality wrote:

If you and your husband can get past the clothing, you will fit in just fine in a torani community.

Are you OK sending to a school where the Rebbeim don't wear black and white? Can you send to a school where the principal wears a big kippah sereguh?

If you can get beyond the clothes, you will discover an almost perfect fit for your hashkafos. A hashkafah that has a warm and loving teacher-student relationship, very low gashmius, stressing the love of our homeland through nature etc.

Definitely ok with a non black and white yeshiva for our boys. That's very in line with how I grew up and the high school we currently send to.

Can you give me some examples of communities and schools we can look into? Warm and low materialism sounds lovely.

amother

Iris

Mon, May 27 2024, 7:04 am

DVOM wrote:

Regarding IDF service, it's hard to know what I truly think, as my only daughter is 2 years old.

What would you say the differences are between a plain DL community and a RWDL/chardal community?

I'm going to try to give a picture of the different groups and how they differ. I realize people might argue with some of my definitions, but I will try.

DL parallels MO in America. Coed schools and youth activities, much more open to secular culture, etc.

RWDL parallels RWMO in America. Separation between boys and girls, more limited exposure to secular culture. But strongly Zionist. And generally supportive of a secular education.

Chardal parallels charedi in a lot of ways, just very strongly Zionist. In terms of dress, I think white shirts aren't expected and sandals would be acceptable. But the tzniut expectations are very strict. And secular education is encouraged only as a way to earn a parnassa.

I really hope my generalizations haven't offended anyone.

DVOM

Mon, May 27 2024, 7:06 am

Reality wrote:

Also, how old is your oldest? Coming past 10th grade makes it very hard to take bagruot. Not impossible but limiting your school options. Many schools won't accept olim in 11th or 12th grade.

My oldest 2 boys will probably graduate HS here before we'd move, my younger 2 boys would probably attend high school there.

(Holy cow! When I say it like that it sounds very real!)

ora_43

Mon, May 27 2024, 7:16 am

JMHO but maybe a religiously mixed community with a smaller English speaking community would be a good fit.

Mostly because the smaller the english speaking community gets, the less "fit" matters. It's like in-town vs OOT in America. 'In town' the difference between one yeshivish school and another is significant; go far enough OOT and Jewish is Jewish whether you're atheist, conservative, or Chabad.

Similar idea here. Except instead of 'Jewish is Jewish' it's more like 'an english speaker is an english speaker.'

Basically: instead of a community that fits you, maybe a community where nobody "fits"? Just a thought.

Although that said what you're saying sounds pretty mainstream DL (dati leumi) to me - except, of course, that DL is very Zionist. But for 360 days of the year, you'd be a pretty good match with DL.

DVOM

Mon, May 27 2024, 7:19 am

amother Lightyellow wrote:

The previous posters answered about you but I'm more concerned about your kids since they are big already. What type are they? You said they go to out of town Chofetz Chaim schools - those can be pretty right wing.
Are your boys comfortable socializing with girls?
Do they only wear white shirts and black pants? Can you see them marrying a girl who wears sandals and a mitpachat?
You didn't mention your girls, but if you have any - what are they like? I would not pull a girl out of a Lakewood Bais Yaakov and deposit her in a Torani/DL community, even if her parents can fit in.

My kids are comfortable socializing with girls. Not that they've had loads of exposure, but when we do find ourselves in mixed situations (at a distant relatives house, let's say) they are friendly, polite, open. 3 of my boys participate in a sport at a pretty high and competitive level in non Jewish training center with non Jewish and non Orthodox boys and girls. They do great there, again, kind, friendly, respectful with both genders.

That having been said, I wouldn't want them in a co ed school. I think learning happens with less distraction and less self consciousness, it gives kids a chance to be just kids for longer in a single gender school.

They don't wear black and white. Neither does my husband.

Hard to picture who my boys might marry, but I wear sandals and scarves. So I imagine they'd be comfortable with it.

What community would you say this puts us in?

My only daughter is 2 years old. Her adjustment to whichever community we'd choose will probably be the easiest.

ora_43

Mon, May 27 2024, 7:20 am

I'd look for a larger (overall) community, because the larger the community, the more school options. Eg where I live we have chabad schools, beit yaakov, mainstream dl, hippy dl (for lack of a better term), 2 private secular schools for troubled students, and public secular schools. More people = more choices.

It's not super uncommon to have kids in a mix of schools, depending on their needs.

Boarding schools are popular in Israel, too. A lot of high schools have that option. Kids are in school during the week and come home for shabbat (or every other shabbat). If that's something you'd be open to, it might widen your search.

I also think it would help you to limit your search a little in terms of price, weather, general location. Israel's a small country but we still do have a lot of places to live Smile

even if you narrow it down to eg 'settlements south of Jerusalem' or 'suburbs of Tel Aviv' you'll have at least a dozen options.

DVOM

Mon, May 27 2024, 7:27 am

amother Iris wrote:

This is really helpful.

We sound like somewhere between RWDL and chardal.

DVOM

Mon, May 27 2024, 7:28 am

ora_43 wrote:

This is an interesting and valuable perspective.

What communities might fit your description?

Also, what does very Zionist mean? I consider myself very Zionist. But I suspect we might mean different things.

DVOM

Mon, May 27 2024, 7:37 am

ora_43 wrote:

even if you narrow it down to eg 'settlements south of Jerusalem' or 'suburbs of Tel Aviv' you'll have at least a dozen options.

Your last paragraph brings me to our wish list.

We'd be looking to buy a house in the 600k range. We'd love a house, and not an apartment, with outdoor space. I don't know if this is possible.

I can work remotely, but my husband can't, and would probably need to be near a big population center. He works in a very specific healthcare field. He's already trained with and been in close contact with practitioners of his work in Israel, and there is a great need and great demand for his work there. Right now the only clinic offering his service is in Tel Aviv, but he'd be ready to open his own clinic.

We're not married to any one location. If the schools and housing were right, we could go anywhere, north or south.

DVOM

Mon, May 27 2024, 7:38 am

ora_43 wrote:

even if you narrow it down to eg 'settlements south of Jerusalem' or 'suburbs of Tel Aviv' you'll have at least a dozen options.

I must have your description of hippy DL ☺️. You've sparked my curiosity!

jerusalem90

Mon, May 27 2024, 8:51 am

amother Iris wrote:

Not offended, but I disagree about DL meaning "coed schools". Every DL high school I've heard of in Israel is separate. Or perhaps they use the same building, but are in separate classes (so at 8am the Calculus teacher teaches boy, then at 9am teaches girls, etc).

My kids' DL mamad school separates genders at 4th grade. I think this is typical, but some DL have kids together for all of elementary school. Other DL school separate starting at 1st grade, but IMO those would tend to be more RWDL, even though many of the families they serve might be regular DL.

Any DL school including RWDL tend to be inclusive, and would accept kids from Masorati (not Shomer Shabbat, but keep many Jewish customs. Often believe they should keep Shabbat, but don't anyway) families. In general, the more right wing the school, the fewer Masorati families would want to send there, but I'm not even sure a Mamad school can legally exclude a Jewish kid for not being frum enough. The Charedi schools can and make their own rules .

jerusalem90

Mon, May 27 2024, 8:59 am

DVOM wrote:

I must have your description of hippy DL ☺️. You've sparked my curiosity!

If you want to see them, go to Bat Ayin 😂

They walk around singing Carlebach tunes, walk around playing guitars, wear tye dye and sandles, long hair for both genders, beaded and dreadlocked hair, henna tattoos, multiple piercings for both genders, often like to smoke or eat the "devil's lettuce", many vegetarians, like being out in nature, take leniencies with regards to hygiene, some of the annoying (IMO) type who for whatever reason get a kick out of not using AC even in summer...

Reality

Mon, May 27 2024, 9:17 am

DVOM wrote:

I only seriously looked in RBS because of the ages of my kids when we made aliyah. Although there is an element here that is higher maintenance, we have found our low gashmius niche here and couldn't be happier!

If you have any RBS questions, I'd be happy to help you.

amother

Broom

Mon, May 27 2024, 10:22 am

amother Iris wrote:

I think I would change RWDL to Torani just bc I think that's what most people would call it. And sometimes torani and chardal are lumped together.

In terms of dress DL will have a mix from pants/no kisui rosh all the way to skirts/full kisui and everything in between. Torani is more all skirts and full kisui rosh. Chardal could be the same but maybe with more long flowy skirts and socks.

But this is all very generalizing everything

amother

Iris

Mon, May 27 2024, 11:22 am

amother Broom wrote:

I agree with the bolded. I didn't want to get too specific with regard to dress, because inevitably someone will take offense. But I think torani women range from full kisui rosh to leaving out a (small) amount of hair, whereas chardal will cover completely. Torani might wear an open (but not plunging) neckline and short (not cap) sleeves. Chardal would generally follow charedi codes, totally covering elbows and collarbones.

amother

Aubergine

Mon, May 27 2024, 11:37 am

DVOM, as someone who made Aliyah with older children, all roads lead to RBS in my opinion. I know the “Anglo bubble” is controversial but I feel like it’s the easiest transition with the most support..
and the way you describe your family you’d fit in perfectly here. Different neighborhoods have different flavors so I’d spend some time looking into that aspect.
Also the level of gashmius here is nothing like the materialism in NY, I do feel like people try to consciously keep it low key even when there’s disposable income floating around (which there seems to be less of than in the US:)

Reality

Mon, May 27 2024, 11:38 am

DVOM wrote:

My oldest 2 boys will probably graduate HS here before we'd move, my younger 2 boys would probably attend high school there.

(Holy cow! When I say it like that it sounds very real!)

Then the most important thing for you to think about is the educational and social needs of your children. You need to choose your landing spot based upon this not on a dream of living in some gorgeous, spiritual oasis, lol! Putting that number one is the key to a successful aliyah with older children. The schools need to be not only welcoming to new olim but also have the knowledge of all the "zchuyot"/rights coming to your children.

amother

Oleander

Mon, May 27 2024, 3:59 pm

DVOM wrote:

Your last paragraph brings me to our wish list.
We'd be looking to buy a house in the 600k range. We'd love a house, and not an apartment, with outdoor space. I don't know if this is possible.

600k USD is about 1.8-2 million shekel. For that you can get a small, likely older house with outdoor space or an attached half-house (sideways or top/bottom) in the smaller, further out yishuvim across the Green Line. But prices are going up relentlessly every year.

amother

Mulberry

Mon, May 27 2024, 4:14 pm

I think torani women range from full kisui rosh to leaving out a (small) amount of hair, whereas chardal will cover completely. Torani might wear an open (but not plunging) neckline and short (not cap) sleeves.

If you would want this, with secular education and filtered internet and clean movies, but NOT zionistically inclined to send to the army, where might you go?

amother

Iris

Mon, May 27 2024, 11:04 pm

amother Mulberry wrote:

Bluntly, a community like that doesn't really exist in Israel. You can find pockets that will work in rbs, more modern charedi. But really, anti-Zionist and anti-army would need to be charedi. And the charedi world is into strict tzniut and frowns on secular education. There's also the technical detail that currently by law a boy who wants to be exempt from the army would need to be in yeshiva full-time. He could only go to university once he's past army age.