halacha vs. "feelings"

amother

Mon, Jun 02 2008, 4:15 pm

mama-star wrote:

as for the part about "halachically you can eat a pareve item made in a fleishig keili (if the vessel has "rested" for 24 hours and is clean), with milchig dishes," I was just recently reviewing this in spice and spirit, in their "halachos" section. so this is coming from a chabad posek. obviously not everyone would hold this way, I am just giving you my source. I personally would not "feel" comfortable about it, (back to the "feelings" part) but there is a place in halacha for it.

I'm looking in Spics and Spirit right now and what it says is that if you prepare a food in a clean meat (or dairy) pot and wish to serve it with a dairy (or meat) meal that you should consult a rabbi. Then it goes on to say that if the pot utencil was used within the last 24 hours that this is for sure not okay to do.

I guess this is aimed at a general kosher audience because I'm Lubavitch and I was taught that it doesn't matter how long your meat pot sits around clean and empty. Any parve food you make in there cannot be eaten with a dairy meal and vice versa.

Anyway, it never straight out says you can do the waiting 24 hour thing. It says to consult an orthodox rabbi about it. Obviously there is a presumption that many will hold this to be okay, but Spice and Spirit doesn't say it is. (Unless I've misunderstood something maybe).

mama-star

Mon, Jun 02 2008, 4:35 pm

CORRECTION! CORRECTION! CORRECTION!

I just reviewed what I was reading in spice and spirit, re:

Quote:

"halachically you can eat a pareve item made in a fleishig keili (if the vessel has "rested" for 24 hours and is clean), with milchig dishes,"

and apparently I misread the information. I sincerely apologize for any confusion this might have caused. thank you, "amother," for pointing this out as well.

from this we can learn what we often state here, that one should never accept as a psak what they read on imamother.

again, I apologize. embarrassed

grin

Tue, Jun 03 2008, 3:14 am

mama-star wrote:

grin,

re: dirty hands, I am pretty sure that heat is one of the requirements for a transfer of ta'am. I could be wrong, but this is my general understanding. if anyone knows otherwise, please share. actually if anyone knows more on the topic of transfer-of-ta'am in general, please share that, too.

I don't think heat is necessary, but I could be wrong here.

mama-star wrote:

2 chabad rabbis have told me specifically not to do this, so there's obviously "a place in halacha" for this.
re: kashering an oven, I understand this is a common practice. again, it's not something I personally do because of my "feelings," (ha ha), but people very often do this l'kavod shavuos. I have heard that doing it all the time isn't so great (kashering back and forth, milchig to fleishig, on a regular basis) but once a year seems to be an average thing.[/quote]
avg after asking the rav or just "done" w/o asking? this is something I've been told both in chabad as well as not.

mama-star wrote:

anyway, goes to show there's all kinds of hashkafos/opinions! Smile

Ribbie Danzinger

Tue, Jun 03 2008, 3:59 am

amother wrote:

mama-star wrote:

or here's another, also kashrus related: halachically you can eat a pareve item made in a fleishig keili (if the vessel has "rested" for 24 hours and is clean), with milchig dishes.

grin wrote:

I don't know about you - my LOR assurs that.

so does mine. If you have made something parev in a meaty pot, it doesnt matter if u have waited 24 hrs u are still not allowed to eat it with cheese or anything milky. And I think its halacha. so I would check.

Most sefardim allow serving on milchig utensils something parev which has been cooked in a meaty pot that has been clean for 24 hrs. Which is why you can find that many sefardim do not understand what you are talking about when you talk about parev utensils. They just don't have any that are specifically parev.

TzenaRena

Tue, Jun 03 2008, 7:50 am

micfri wrote:

I took a class about kashrus at my shul and these very issues came up. Much of what you are describing are, in fact, feelings, and not based on halacha. It's a matter of finding out what is permitted in any given circumstance and having the ability to follow it. You may need to let go to some of the things you learned from your mother, which may not in fact be correct.

I think we all have those feelings, but wouldn't it be better to know the halachos and not get hysterical over nothing?

the fact is that there ARE different halachic opinions with these matters, so what some will regard as "feelings" are actually halachic issues in nature, with some authorities taking a more stringent view. That's why, especially with this issue it 's necessary to ask your Rav.

I remember that my father once asked a shailoh to two Rabbonim in our community about whether blending a certain item in a fleishig blender would render that parve item fleishig, and he got two different answers, and they were both Chabad Rabbonim.

and mama-star, I think most women are like this, and it's a GOOD thing. It does protect against major messing up.
I also am very wary of my kids touching things with greasy, milchig hands, or shpritzing things which can land anywhere. One thing that transfers taam is hot, but wet or greasy can also play a role (not sure exactly which), especially if you end up later putting something hot down on the spot where your little one touched with her greasy milchig hands .

My kids were trained pretty well, but just last night someone left a fleishig knife soaking in the milchig sink, (after using it for something parve). and now I'll have to ask a shailoh. Confused

And to remind, that the Lubavitcher Rebbe asked that tzedaka pushka be permanently affixed to the wall in the kitchen, and one should give tzedaka before cooking. This elicits Divine help in our task of assuring the kashrus of the meals we prepare and serve.

Motek

Tue, Jun 03 2008, 12:41 pm

What about the thread in which someone described a situation where a man was faced with a conflict between attending his father's event or his son's school event. I think many people would say that his son comes first, how important it is to support his son and show up at the school event, but those feelings are not the halacha since the halacha is that kibud av is his first obligation.

So sometimes our feelings about what is right or what should be done are off-base, Jewishly speaking. On the other hand, there is something to a "yiddishe gefil" (Jewishly honed feelings). It's something to be wary about, I think, because out of ignorance we might do things with good intentions that are just plain wrong.

Ruchel

Sat, Nov 08 2008, 12:53 pm

from chassidish author Sarah Chana Radcliffe:

“all feelings are acceptable. Moreover, the only way to change a feeling is to accept it. That is the basis of much psychotherapy. Once the fear, sadness, anger (or whatever) is acknowledged and even welcomed, it diminishes automatically”.
“feelings are just feelings and are all acceptable – including anger.”

Inspired

Sat, Nov 08 2008, 1:45 pm

mama-star wrote:

or here's another, also kashrus related: halachically you can eat a pareve item made in a fleishig keili (if the vessel has "rested" for 24 hours and is clean), with milchig dishes.

Only bidieved. Ie: you already put cheese on the pasta cooked in the clean eino ben yomo fleishig pot. Do you throw it out or do you eat it? Personally the baal tashchis of not eating something that is perfectly acceptable to eat would bother memore.
FYI for sefardim it doesn't even have to aino ben yoma and they can do it lichatchila.

Mrs. XYZ

Sat, Nov 08 2008, 11:01 pm

daamom wrote:

I know someone who won't allow a fleishig dishtowel on her milchig counter. Ever. We're not talking about when there's, I don't know, hot meatsauce on the towel, and milk on the counter. Even clean towels. She runs her kitchen like this in every situation. Isn't this taking the "feelings" thing too far?

Clean cold towels on a clean cold counter? does she also wash them separately? in separate washing machines?