Danger in certain types of Communication

Motek

Tue, Jan 10 2006, 12:33 pm

I learned that if you speak lashon hara about someone, aside from the sin incurred, speaking about a person's evil brings it out of concealment (even if it is known to others, the person you told it to didn't know it before you told them) and this strengthens it Sad

another reason to think twice before badmouthing someone!

same is true for expressing thoughts that are a lack of bitachon, thinking them is no good but saying them magnifies the lack of trust, for not only did he think about it, but he expressed it!

makes me wonder about the writing something that expresses lack of trust, what category it's in

is writing even worse than speaking because writing is an action (thought-speech-action)?

red sea

Tue, Jan 10 2006, 12:53 pm

Who said same goes for lack of bitachon? I had a teacher in high school who once yelled at a girl who asked a question during navi class "it is apikorsus, how dare you ask a question like that ..." and continued to tell her off and never answered the question. Since we all know Hashem and the torah are 100% emes then what is wrong with someone questioning things? We do not feel threatened, we need to explain it to them better so they will understand as well. If they never expressed themselves, they would always have questions in their thoughts.

Motek

Tue, Jan 10 2006, 1:00 pm

of course, one should be able to ask sincere questions about emuna!

the point about bitachon is that in the best possible scenario, the person trusts completely in Hashem and is utterly serene

but if a person is worried, in other words he lacks complete trust in Hashem that everything will be fine, then TALKING about his misgivings and lack of trust magnifies his lack of trust!

talking 'bitachon' here, not 'emuna' Exclamation

happyone

Tue, Jan 10 2006, 1:04 pm

I don't see the comparison between lashon harah and bitachon.
If someone is lacking either emunah or bitachon they NEED to verbalize it as to get clarification.
if they don't verbalize it, and ask for clarification, guidance , help , understanding; the questions go unanswered and only become more of a question in ones mind.

Motek

Tue, Jan 10 2006, 1:13 pm

you seem to be confusing emuna and bitachon

bitachon means trusting that Hashem will provide you with parnasa, with
children, that you will be safe, healthy

there's a separate thread on bitachon in this (the Judaism section)

http://imamother.com/forum/vie.....88686

red sea

Tue, Jan 10 2006, 2:17 pm

Okay then if that is bitachon then who said hashem will give a person everything - some people don't have money or health or lots of other things, people maybe have 100% bitachon but worry if they'll be able to rise to the level of dealing emotionally with what Hashem gives them, or maybe people who are not well are just nervous since they do not know what the future will bring and are really hoping that Hashem will answer their tefilos with a yes, you know sort of like waiting on pins and needles for answer that they want.

Bitachon has a gray flexible area of where bitachon and hishtadlus should meet, but loshon hora is purely black and white - is that not so?

Motek

Tue, Jan 10 2006, 2:37 pm

please look at the thread I referred to earlier and if after reading it, you have further questions about bitachon, feel free to post them there Smile

Quote:

Bitachon has a gray flexible area of where bitachon and hishtadlus should meet, but loshon hora is purely black and white - is that not so?

true, they're not exactly comparable

Mandy

Tue, Jan 10 2006, 7:38 pm

Motek, you may not like this very much, but I have heard that some rabbonim in Europe before WWII, told their congregants not to leave because everything will be good and to leave would indicate a lack of bitachon. Those people are no longer among the living. What does that mean about bitachon ?

amother

Tue, Jan 10 2006, 7:50 pm

Quote:

ok now a question
I know loshon hora is bad and all that
but lets say you have a scenario where both parties already know about the 3rd persons negativity, but talking about it does a number of things

a: the person who has just been hurt needs to cry it out of their system
b: the person needs support from the other who knows about it already
c: the second person who went through a similar experience and was all alone with no support at the time now knows that they aren't alone anymore
d: talking about it will possibly lead to a discussion on how to fix the problem and get the other person to change

red sea

Tue, Jan 10 2006, 7:56 pm

That would not be loshon hora if it met certain criteria. Some of it: it was said about the offender w/o naming names, only for a constructive purpose, and the listener was not mekabel. Don't quote me as 100% accurate _ I could be a bit off, I did not look it up.

Tefila

Tue, Jan 10 2006, 8:24 pm

Quote:

told their congregants not to leave because everything will be good and to leave would indicate a lack of bitachon.

Source please!

Quote:

Those people are no longer among the living. What does that mean about bitachon

All of those people or Hashem performed miracles Exclamation

red sea

Tue, Jan 10 2006, 8:34 pm

Mandy wrote:

some rabbonim in Europe before WWII, told their congregants not to leave because everything will be good and to leave would indicate a lack of bitachon. Those people are no longer among the living. What does that mean about bitachon ?

It can also mean that there is a place where bitachon and hishtadlus meet, yaakov did run from eisav to be safe, or how about each person ended up doing what his path in life was/is anyway, if they were meant to live, by nes or not, they did.

chavamom

Wed, Jan 11 2006, 12:07 am

I never heard that they were told it was a lack of bitachon to leave. They were told that the spiritual dangers in America and Eretz Yisrael were worse than the physical dangers in Europe. Spiritual death is worse than physical death, so wouldn't say they were wrong, per se.

Motek

Thu, Jan 12 2006, 1:37 pm

Mandy wrote:

Motek, you may not like this very much ... What does that mean about bitachon ?

this is an old question and it's an "emunas chachamim" question which I learned in school

you can look up Michtav Eliyahu, vol. 1, p. 75 (Heb. edition, though I think this is also available in English) for a response if you're interested

Motek

Thu, Jan 12 2006, 6:11 pm

he writes, if you would have asked the Jews of the time of Mordechai why extermination was decreed upon them, they would have immediately said that it was because Mordechai didn't bow to Haman and aroused his wrath, as it says in the Megilla. Nobody connected events to what took place nine years earlier when they had eaten at the party.

R' Dessler listed many gedolim whom he knew and he writes about them and their wisdom and their responsibility for Klal Yisrael in extremely laudatory terms and says without emunas chachamim, we are done for.

the footnote says the letter was written in response to someone who asked him why the gedolim did not urge Jews to leave for Palestine for by not leaving they were killed, not acknowledging that the fact that Rommel didn't enter Palestine was incredibly miraculous.

for any further questions on this point, please read his letter first