Bugs and other gross things in processed food (fixed)

leomom

Sun, Feb 15 2009, 12:21 am

Definitely, but I'm not talking about bugs you can see. I'm talking about unrecognizable, pulverized-into-mush bug parts that get into the food.

From the article, it sounds like it's not realistic to expect food to be processed without some amount of gross stuff getting into it. (I've heard that before -- nothing new. Except this article goes into great detail.) So, when there is kosher supervision, is the standard any higher? Or do they just figure it's all bottul b'shishim?

leomom

Sun, Feb 15 2009, 12:37 am

OK, so everyone tries their best to keep bugs and rodent hairs, etc., out of the food. So for food with hechsherim, they wouldn't try even a little harder? Since it's a matter of kashrus, and not just aesthetics...

Or would they just fall back on bottul b'shishim? But can you decide in advance that something will be bottul b'shishim, when you KNOW there will be stuff in there? Can that be used as a safety net in ADVANCE of actually producing and packaging the food? Or can you only say it's bottul b'shishim once something has happened, and you go back and say (or a Rav says), it's OK bdieved (after the fact) because it's bottul b'shishim?

Tzippora

Sun, Feb 15 2009, 12:48 am

yy wrote:

Nobody says they don't - for both kosher and non-kosher. But there is a reality that a certain amount can and will slip through and THAT is when we say battul b'shishim.

I just think this article was a little alarmist in that - well, it's technically allowed, so all our food must be filthy.

leomom

Sun, Feb 15 2009, 1:22 am

Thanks -- that's what I'm trying to understand. I guess I thought the idea of bottul b'shishim was that after the fact, if (for example) milk got into meat or a bug part got into something, then you could say it's OK because it's less than 1 part in 60.

But can you say, knowing in ADVANCE that bugs (etc.) will get into food, that they WILL BE bottul b'shishim? Isn't that like saying that, yeah, I'll probably spill a few drops of milk into my meat cholent by mistake because it's hard to avoid, but it will be OK because it will be bottul b'shishim?

Or do the rules change if you're in someone's personal kitchen or in a food manufacturing plant?

Tzippora

Sun, Feb 15 2009, 1:31 am

yy wrote:

As I understand it, there are entirely different ways things are handled when dealing with food on a mass scale, in terms of a chazaka that there are no bugs, etc. So the answer is yes, but I'm not familiar enough to speak to it.

But think of it this way - if you had to cook chicken soup in a place where, for some reason, milk was flying and spattering around the room, you would try to avoid it touching your pot, but you would know, inevitably, if milk did land in your soup, it would be batul. The issue with bugs is that they move on their own, you try to avoid them getting into your food and seal it off and check to make sure they aren't there - but inevitably, if they are, they're battul.

My feeling is that it's not easy for us to get because we grow up so far from where the food is grown/processed that we don't quite understand exactly how hard it is to extract every last bug from a multi-ton crop of grain/fruit/veggies. Or to keep every last bug/mouse/whatever out of the silos. But in reality, having spent time in the woods, try getting every last ant/beetle/other bug off the ground before putting down your sleeping bag - it's not going to happen. And that's just a couple of square feet! So I'm less than horrified by all the hoopla, and what the FDA has accomplished to date is better than was ever accomplished before good pesticides came out.

Oh, also - the other thing is that any bug is considered nosen ta'am lifgam, so we're certainly much less worried about it from a kashrus perspective. Nobody thinks that anything referenced in the article improves the quality of our food Very Happy

leomom

Sun, Feb 15 2009, 1:48 am

Thanks, Tzippora. Makes sense.

Not sure I understand your last paragraph. Are you saying that since we wouldn't be tempted to deliberately add bugs to our food to improve the taste, there's less of a problem with saying in advance that if a bug gets in, it will be bottul? Basically because we'd have no motive to be less than careful?

Also, I thought bottul doesn't apply to big things (like a mouse, for example). Does it also not apply to small-but-visible things like tiny bugs? Or, um, yuck, like rodent hairs? Can bugs and hairs actually be bottul at all?

mamacita

Sun, Feb 15 2009, 11:30 pm

You can't bottul a whole bug, just FYI. And it's only b'dieved to puree something just to make sure things are bottul, but you can't puree to bottul instead of checking or cleanig.

Also from my bug-checking classes I learned that certain hechshers do guarantee that the product is cleaner because they go through a more rigorous cleaning product and then spot checks to make sure the standards are being upheld. Some products from certain places are known to be more problematic, for example, mushrooms from Asia, raisins from Turkey, etc. So certain hechshers make sure to buy from places that are known to be cleaner to begin with.

leomom

Sun, Feb 15 2009, 11:41 pm

mamacita wrote:

You can't bottul a whole bug, just FYI. And it's only b'dieved to puree something just to make sure things are bottul, but you can't puree to bottul instead of checking or cleanig.

Right, that's what I thought. That's why I was wondering if/how kosher foods can get away with a certain "allowance" of bugs, etc.

Quote:

Also from my bug-checking classes I learned that certain hechshers do guarantee that the product is cleaner because they go through a more rigorous cleaning product and then spot checks to make sure the standards are being upheld. Some products from certain places are known to be more problematic, for example, mushrooms from Asia, raisins from Turkey, etc. So certain hechshers make sure to buy from places that are known to be cleaner to begin with.

That makes sense and is rather reassuring. I would assume, then, that the best hechsherim do their absolute utmost to prevent bugs and other stuff from getting into food. (And if they can, and if most people think eating bugs and rodent hairs is disgusting just from an aesthetic perspective, then why does the FDA have to have such high allowable limits for this stuff? Why can't they do a better job?)