how do so many frum people have so much money?

amother

Wed, Jan 21 2015, 1:20 pm

amother wrote:

I get that it seems petty to talk about what other ppl have.

But when your sister in law makes a simcha and can't afford it, so the family is asked to give tzedakah for it, it rankles. Especially when its important that it look just so, so no one is ashamed??? And then when her daughter has a baby and buys an expensive carriage, its ANNOYING. Yes, she may have gotten it as gift or saved or whatever. I understand. What I don't understand is why the community and her relatives have sponsored her simchas because she can't afford to make a wedding and then her children use their "own" money for luxuries. I feel like I've been used. I also feel like I ain't chippin' in over there anymore! If you can cough up "gift money" or your own money for the stuff you want, don't you think that they could cough up money for stuff that they don't really want to do?

You got fooled once. Fortunately you get to decide where your tzedakah money goes, so you won't let it happen again. There are many needy people out there who need that money to pay for things like the dentist they haven't been able to afford in 15 years.

Sanguine

Wed, Jan 21 2015, 1:21 pm

amother wrote:

We get a lot of "Shnurers" where I live. Almost every night someone comes to the door looking for Tzdaka. We don't have a lot of money but I'm not going door to door so I must have more than this man. We give everyone a few Shekel. That's the standard here. Everyone gives. Sometimes you see the person later get in a nicer car than I have to drive home. It doesn't matter. No one wants to have to be asking for charity. It's a terrible way to be. Totally hurts your self-esteem. So I can't let this man have a little Kavod by driving a nice car? (It doesn't take much to be nicer than mine). Even if he's conning me. He's doing it cause he can't do it the way other people do. If somebody has to ask, I always give with an open heart, even if not an open wallet. Giving should make you feel good. Don't give more than you can afford cause that makes you bitter. Eizehi Ashir - HaSameach B'Chelko. I'm Ashir cause I'm Sameach B'Chelko but I wouldn't be if I had to ask for Tzedaka.

Fox

Wed, Jan 21 2015, 1:23 pm

There are two laws of economics with which we all have to grapple:

1. Human wants are infinite and human resources are finite -- no matter how rich you are.
2. Individuals and families have vastly different ideas about how to utilize their resources.

imaima wrote:

The difference is that for all those years she's been wheeling an easy-pushing, comfortable bugaboo and you - a graco.

I'm long past my stroller days, so I don't have a particular dog in the Bugaboo fight, but do you hear the subtle judgment here? However unintended, the message comes through loud and clear: nebach, you have a *Graco*?

I always joke that I wear Paula Young shaitels (and I used Graco strollers!), but it's a huge priority for me to have sterling silver flatware. Would we be able to eat just as well using stainless steel? Absolutely! And with a lot less maintenance, I might add. Heck, we use plastic flatware for many meals during the week, and I have no moral or aesthetic qualms about it. The sterling silver thing is my own personal mishegas, and if I'd prefer flatware to a nicer shaitel, then good for me (and Towle Silversmiths).

So when does it become a problem? When I lose the self-awareness that this is *my* preference and insist on persuading others that they are living unfulfilled lives without sterling flatware -- or try to bolster my own self-worth by promoting my preferences. Among women, this often comes out through sly little put-downs and back-handed compliments:

"Oh, wow, Malkie! Your table looks so beautiful. I would never have believed it was possible to set such a nice table with just stainless steel!"

"Thanks for the info about the sale, but I would never use stainless steel flatware on Shabbos."

"Stainless steel flatware gets discolored over time. I'd much prefer something that will last."

A related problem is when people begin to believe that they need the best of everything. Perhaps some people find the quality of a certain type of stroller worth the higher price, but if they *also* turn their noses up at laundry baskets from Wal-Mart, socks from Target, and toy boxes from Ikea -- well, something else is going on.

amother wrote:

I love it the way posters who are defending their wealth - always feel the need to mention - we work very hard, or we work our tush off, etc. etc.
Sounds like "kochi v'oztem yadi..." (sorry if my spelling is off)

It is also extremely insulting to those who also work hard but are not in your position of wealth. This coming from someone that works full time, plus her husband does physical labor from 4am - 9pm daily. We barely manage to make ends meet. Living paycheck to paycheck.

Still think you work your tush off, so you "earned" your wealth?

Amother, I wish we could pin your post at the start of every single thread on finances.

If I were to post something advocating we all observe, say, the Feast of St. Agnes, I'd be promptly (and correctly!) castigated and the mods would quickly conclude I'd gone off my rocker and remove the thread.

But the notions that hard work equals parnosseh or that parnosseh is a reward for hard work are just about as non-Jewish as the Feast of St. Agnes.

We do our hishtadlus because Hashem commanded us to do so. Hashem decides our parnosseh. Sure, it may appear that someone who works more or harder receives more income, but that's illusory, and each one of us knows dozens of anecdotes that demonstrate the lack of link between the two.

And all those people who seem not to be doing any hishtadlus but haven't yet starved to death? Well, first of all, we don't really know what hishtadlus they're capable of doing. Secondly, they may just be sinning by not doing enough hishtadlus. People sin. Or they may have received bad advice. People give and take bad advice.

None of this, however, has to do with parnosseh. Many of us receive adequate parnosseh even though, if we were honest, our hishtadlus was a little weak. And many of us struggle with parnosseh despite enormous hishtadlus. In the end, our parnosseh is a gift from Hashem, and we are obligated to use that gift responsibly. That doesn't mean living an austere existence; it means being self-aware about the choices you're making -- and thinking how you'll explain those choices at then end of 120 years.

amother

Wed, Jan 21 2015, 1:56 pm

Wow. Reading this thread makes me so very grateful to live in the community that I do. I'm waaay OOT and people are quite modest. We have a mix of very rich down to quite poor and lots of in between. Shul is not a fashion show. Everything is very laid back and people are always passing things down to one another so everyone's got kids in used clothes, etc., or pushing a fancy brand stroller that they got for free or on the cheap. A couple of women are way into fashion so they are wearing the latest styles and brands, but that's their "thing" and no one thinks anything of it or tries to keep up with them.

People also keep simchas and other things pretty simple so it doesn't create high expectations for everyone. And no one feels ashamed to put a call out for help with baking for a simcha if they can't afford the catering.

When we last visited DH's family in LA, all the materialistic conversation about stuff and money and who has what literally made DH and me sick to our stomachs. (Not bashing all of LA here, just commenting on the conversation at my in-laws house and they are all really nice people.). It opened our eyes to how non-materialistic our community is. Which is great - I don't worry that friends are burying themselves in debt just so they can keep up with the Joneses.

Dandelion1

Wed, Jan 21 2015, 1:59 pm

Sanguine wrote:

I just don't see it. How do you have money to buy a nice car if you have no money to survive and need tzedaka? The people I give tzedakah to I would never ever call "shnurers".

I mean people can ask for anything they want. But if you give your tzedaka money to somebody who is using it to feel good about his nice car, then it is not going to someone who needs it for something more fundamental. Once the world has no more people in it who can't afford to pay a dentist to fix five year old cavities, I will gladly give any money I have left over so that young mothers don't have to suffer the humiliation of pushing a Graco stroller.

boysrus

Wed, Jan 21 2015, 2:09 pm

clowny wrote:

Although I do agree that a bugaboo stroller is a good investment and might last a lot longer than, say a Graco stroller but what if you don't have an extra $800 to spend now? Will u buy it anyway? Just because its a good investment. Isn't it financially easier to spend $200 at every second or thrd baby rather than $800 at once? Although in the long run (very long run) you might (only might) end up spending more money.

The way I look at it- how can u spend a lot of money on expensive products when at the same time you struggle financially? Although it will be a good investment. The term "good investment" is when you can afford it. And I'm not gonna go into the fact of when one has debts and at the same time spend money on "good investments". I think it's wrong imo.

yes yes yes

much much easier to spend 100 -200 at one time. who has the money to shell out for such expensive strollers anyway Rolling Eyes

I am a happy mother who has been using a beautiful graco stroller, lie back from birth, functions like a snap and go as well with a carseat. This has been through 3 kids BH, no complaints BH. Cost me $125 on sale six years ago...
My other three kids went through one double stroller, also on sale for $75 (about 12 years ago) and one other single stroller. That's it, done.
so glad I didnt need anything more expensive, and btw I have been trhough stages of my life with strollers when I had no car adn walked absolutely everywhere.

Sanguine

Wed, Jan 21 2015, 2:11 pm

youngishbear wrote:

My nonjewish cleaning woman has an iphone, even though she begged me to help her find work so she can pay the rent. She is a single mother, recent immigrant. It is not a frum issue, or even a Jewish one, that sometimes people will manage to have luxury or two (bought, gift, or whatever) and still not make enough to cover their otherwise meager needs.

You can't fine-tooth other people's finances when they ask for help. Before I give I insist on checking their fridge for coca-cola (that's my fight with my kids cause I want to buy cheaper brands and my son says "I'll give you the extra 3 shekel every week" (he's 20).) I see Coke as extravagant. But I'm sure you think that's ridiculous. But I think it's a luxury not a necessity. My kids think it's more important than my "better" coffee. Now that's a necessity!! To your cleaning lady an iphone is a necessity. For teens here a smart phone is a necessity.

I think of my cleaning lady (she works hard and makes a decent salary - In Israel cleaning ladies make an American salary). It drives me crazy when she's not as thrifty as I am. She throws out toothpaste tubes before it's been squeeed and squeezed. I could get one more drop out. Then she makes me buy shmattes!!! Whats wrong with ripped T-shirts??

This whole thread just bothers me cause when you give someone Tzedaka, you don't own them. I think you're not allowed to use food stamps for cigarettes. That's OK. That money is given for food. But you don't own the person you give Tzedaka to. They're allowed to live a little too. They're allowed to enjoy things too. If they bought that Bugaboo, they probably gave up on a lot of thngs that you take for granted (like coke)

(hmm - my post seems to go in circles - not sure who I'm answering - just rambling)

Sanguine

Wed, Jan 21 2015, 2:28 pm

aleph wrote:

Maybe he borrowed the car. I'm not talking crazy nice. It doesn't take much to be nicer than our's. I really don't know if the guy owned it. You need a car to get here. I'm not talking about when you give for a specific thing (the dentist), those you give more. I'm talking the knock on the door (anyone who wants to collect in our community needs a letter from the Yishuv Rav who also checks with the police) so you're probably not getting conned.

Sorry I called them "shnurers". They're people who come here from at least an hour away. My neighborhood is popular for them. It's all dati and many anglos. We live in houses. We're not rich but you'll get something at every door. We actually call them "Tzdaka man/lady" - That's what my kids tell me when I ask them who was at the door.

seer

Wed, Jan 21 2015, 2:29 pm

amother wrote:

your post is extremely derogatory, insulting and seethes with jealousy of course conveniently hidden by an amother label. Many people on these typical financial posts usually assume that people who have money get it in unorthodox ways like rich parents, govt programs, or they're in debt...therefore people who actually worked for their money feel the need to defend themselves. Yes, you can make money by working hard and im sorrry if you don't but many people do-its a simple fact. my husband works all day and most of the night without a degree and makes 200k a year. I have a degree and make 60k . we have two kids, own our home pay full tuition...yes we thank hashem every day that we are financially stable and no we don't take it for granted especially because we were once a struggling couple too who couldn't put food on the table. Yes, we feel we've 'earned' our wealth. That doesnt mean we dont thank hashem for it. I dont know why I have to point it out but obviously you can work the same hours but get paid a lot less an hour...its not rocket science. excuse the spelling and grammar typing on a small device

Sanguine

Wed, Jan 21 2015, 2:30 pm

amother wrote:

That's how I feel. This pettiness is so foreign to me. Glad I don't live with it either.

amother

Wed, Jan 21 2015, 2:58 pm

Peanut2 wrote:

While bugaboos aren't big in the Dati Leumi world you live in, they totally are a thing in Israel in some places. Go to Emek on a Friday morning and see a stroller show.

And even in the shtachim most young couples, especially in the world I know which is either more Anglo or the gush buy good quality strollers. Tons of people I know have higher end double baby joggers, which are really expensive. And these are mostly couples with cars, too. (Which I agree makes a differce. If you live in the suburbs like I do and are just taking your kids in and out of the car at gan, home, the store, you aren't using a stroller as much. Making to walk to gan nearby and on Shabbos. If someone lives in a city with no car it's like a wagon for everything. So I get it. Personally I think that the difference between a bugaboo and a slightly lesser brand, like BJ, isn't the biggest deal over a few kids. It's not as much of a crazy cost as tuition, sheitels, living in expensive Jewish areas, other higher Jewish costs, or keeping up with the Cohens.

I just wanna point out that BJ and bugaboos aren't nearly the same price. I don't know if bugaboos go on sale but I know of a website where all city mini strollers go on 1/2 price sale every year (I don't remember which, but it was where I got my babyjogger). I had it brought in from America and all my american friends who live here, did the same. So you end up spending 200 dollars on a good baby jogger instead of however much on a bugaboo.

Anyway I find the bugaboo to be big and clunky. If I decide to get a different stroller next time around, I want the uppababy. I love my city mini but my baby doesn't because she has to lean forward in order to see on the side of the stroller. but getting an uppababy would mean that it's harder to fold up and transport.

I do understand the op, I think. I think she's asking if: 1) people are living within their means and making the same amount as op and therefore she wants tips or 2)are they making more and therefore they can afford more or 3) are they making the same as op and they are living in debt.

Heyaaa

Wed, Jan 21 2015, 3:12 pm

youngishbear wrote:

Fox you are indeed wise.

And sanguine, you have a huge heart. I am able to think like that sometimes - but not always.

Opening your heart like that to say even if he earns more than me by shnorring, I not only still prefer to earn my little bit bederech kavod, but I will also help him out in his chosen "parnassah" regardless, is an amazing level.

My nonjewish cleaning woman has an iphone, even though she begged me to help her find work so she can pay the rent. She is a single mother, recent immigrant. It is not a frum issue, or even a Jewish one, that sometimes people will manage to have luxury or two (bought, gift, or whatever) and still not make enough to cover their otherwise meager needs.

An iphone is a one-time expense every other year and with the right contract it's not a big downpayment. Do you know what other things she's living without? All you see is the iphone. For all you know she's living without furniture and her iphone is one of her few pleasures in life.

This thread is making a lot of assumptions. It's assuming that when you see someone with a bugaboo (just for example), they are also not cutting corners in any area that you cut corners. In other words you are assuming that you both (a) make the same amount of money (b) consider the same things to be priorities in terms of how much you are willing to spend on something (c) have the same spending knowledge and spending techniques (some people always know how to find sales and some people always find coupons for everything) (d) get the same amount of presents and hand-me-downs.

amother

Wed, Jan 21 2015, 3:13 pm

aleph wrote:

"They had the silver cross which was even more expensive. (Ratio...)"

Smile

Lol.... LOL

Not to date myself as a grumpy old lady here, but when my first dc was born 17 years ago, the go to carriage was the Peg Perego Milano. They were $350 which was shocking... we found a last year's model for $250 which was also seemed crazy at the time....

LOL! The Peg Perego Milano! I remember that stroller! Everyone in the world had a stupid Peg perego, and they said the same thing at the time. "Oh, well it's because THIS stroller will last!" And "It wheels so great!"

Spoilers: It didn't last. And they didn't wheel great. I didn't buy one because I thought $350 was insane at the time. I bought a $150 one that lasted for two kids, and I didn't feel bad when I threw it away to get another one later.

It's marketing, pure and simple. Some genius marketing exec realized that people will spend shocking amounts of money on babies, and now you have $1000 strollers that are de rigeur. And people are falling all over themselves to buy it. They can justify it however they want, and I honestly don't care what people do with their money, but expensive doesn't always mean "better".

And for all those with a Bugaboo, not to worry. The Miu Maxima is right on your tail. Now everyone's going to HAVE to buy the $1500 stroller.

Also: Let's not assume that people here haven't bought their strollers on Craigslist. It's a genius site to get a secondhand stroller (because THEY LAST!!! :-D) that looks great and wheels great and is a fraction of the retail price.

amother

Wed, Jan 21 2015, 3:19 pm

My husband is working, he works crazy hard, he is hardly home. But, its Seyata Dishmaya, and we thank Hashem every day, that at least after working hard he is earning a decent wage. No, we are not rich. But have what we need BH! But, we started off being supported by his parents, and they invested a little into him going into work. So, yes we had that advantage. But, we don't waste money, we save and save and I don't buy half the things I wld be able to.
But, at the end of the day, its all in Hashem's hand, he gives and he takes.
I grew up with not having a lot. My parents were poor.
Every person can spend their money the way they want, some ppl spend money they dont have, some ppl borrow to live on a higher standard, some ppl actually have the money they spend even though it looks like they dont have. You never know where ppl have money from.