Why cover your hair when wearing a mini skirt??

↑ jkl ↓

Fri, May 04 2018, 9:38 am

shiaeisen wrote:

Of COURSE it’s on the man, that’s a given. But in the case I described where the frum woman is dressed inappropriately, the thought the man has will result in a sin for the woman as well.

Inappropriately based on YOUR standards, or her and her Rabbi's standards????

↑ shiaeisen ↓

Fri, May 04 2018, 9:39 am

jkl wrote:

Huh? Which world do you live in? I don't know anything about the Sefardi community, but in the NY area, the influx of new rules, unrelated to Halacha, have become so oppressing, that people are just fed up with it all. This situation is a perfect example of why we shouldn't add to the Torah. They've added so many rules, that its now difficult to distinguish which one is an actual halacha, which one is a gedar and which one is superfluous.

And these new rules are new inventions, so they were NOT around when I was young, nor did my parent and grandparents follow any of these rules. Please stop revising history.

I live in NY. Can you please provide examples of which new “oppressive rules” with regard to tznius have been added that I haven’t heard about????

↑ jkl ↓

Fri, May 04 2018, 9:39 am

shiaeisen wrote:

You can disagree but it’s a halachic OBLIGATION, which obviously you seem to easily disregard.

It's a halachic OBLIGATION to stop an anonymous woman on the street, embarrass and shame her, all to let her know that she is not following YOUR interpretation of halacha? Can you please show me the text where it says to do that?

↑ jkl ↓

Fri, May 04 2018, 9:41 am

shiaeisen wrote:

I live in NY. Can you please provide examples of which new “oppressive rules” with regard to tznius have been added that I haven’t heard about????

Lets put it this way. When I was in school, the tznius guidelines consisted of some bullet points on a sheet. Today's days the school send out booklets with pages of guidelines.

↑ shiaeisen ↓

Fri, May 04 2018, 9:41 am

watergirl wrote:

You yourself are being oveir being dan lkaf zchus with these statements. Imo thats even worse than a breach of tznius.

Again that’s your opinion. So are you saying definitively that you know for a fact that being over dan lkaf schus is a worse aveiroh? As far as I know, human beings were not given the understanding of any one sin being worse than another....but you sound like you know better so please share your source.

↑ jkl ↓

Fri, May 04 2018, 9:42 am

shiaeisen wrote:

But you do know better? If you yourself don't know which one is better or worse, why take the risk of transgressing on either one?

↑ Forrealx ↓

Fri, May 04 2018, 9:42 am

shiaeisen wrote:

Sorry but according to the Torah, the tznius issues are specifically on the woman precisely because men have more struggles in the area of lust than women. That’s why there’s no Halacha that men can’t show their elbows or knees...of course men do cover up and dress appropriately but the Halacha of tznius is not th same as for women, so your entire premise is based on non fact and against what the Torah says. And it is an outright Halacha that men are forbidden from gazing at a woman (other than wife), whether you agree with it or not, but that’s the Torah.

You don't need to teach me about Torah, I have a chumash here, went to midreshot and I have a lot of artscroll/feldheim books regarding women issues.
Maybe it is the differnece that I'm not ffb, studied religion studies at a secular university and still going out with secular friends and that I have a minor in gender studies that I know from scientific reasons that women have the same urges regarding lust as men!
And I don't know about your appereance but whenever I'm in a frum neighbourhood and dressing modestly men are still gazing. But I refuse to be acting holy that I'm not gazing aswell. I had haredi flirts seriously in Antwerp, when I was buying soda a guy with peyos looked me in the eye and smiled and I smiled back and he turned reddish and it was cute. There is a Torah, we are not holy we live in this world. We are not saints.

↑ BadTichelDay

Fri, May 04 2018, 9:44 am

shiaeisen wrote:

Thank you! Another voice of reason. And now I’ll share something I heard Mrs. Carol Haber say in a Shiur which will probably, hopefully, shock some of the naysayers here, as it did all of us in the Shiur. She used to be more “modern” as she was brought up modern, and years ago she belonged to a PTA group in her son’s very frum Yeshiva (I think it was Torah V’daas but don’t remember) as at the time, there weren’t many sefardi Yeshiva available. So at the time, she did not cover her hair. She went to one of these women's Meetings in her son’s Yeshiva, with no head covering, and a very frum looking woman with a Shaitel came over to her and said, “You know, I so admire that you don’t care what people think about your not covering your hair, so I decided I’m going to be like you, and I am no longer going to wear a Shaitel!” Carol Haber, at that point in the Shiur (after everyone gasped in horror, and visibly saw her pain), then picked up a strand of her Shaitel and said, “I’m trying to fix it.” If that story doesn’t horrify you and put everything in perspective about how it indeed IS everyone’s business, then I don’t know what to say.

Well, I can see that this is a good reason to be makpid on one's own (community) standards and to avoid setting a bad example to others. But I don't see where reprimanding strangers on the street would fit in here.

↑ shiaeisen ↓

Fri, May 04 2018, 9:44 am

jkl wrote:

!

But apparently you know which one is worse in the eyes of Hashem! You would approach an anonymous woman and discuss her tznius with her, risking embarrassing her, shaming her and possibly increase feelings of distaste towards yiddishkeit!

What does the Torah say about embarrassing one?! Apparently, you're rating tznius as being worse in the eyes of Hashem than embarrassing and shaming, because you're willing to prioritize tznius over embarrassing somebody!!

Embarrassing? Who said anything about embarrassing? Had you read what I wrote with an open mind,instead of freaking out as you are, you’d have seen I said it has to be done with sensitivity and diplomacy. And like it or not, which apparently you don’t, it’s a Halacha owas give tochacha when you see someone doing a sin. I’d suggest you read Henny Machlis’s a’h book and you’ll see how she always spoke up to people doing the wrong thing and she was very effective because she knew how to do it with diplomacy. And I’d also suggest you delve into where your anger is coming from too,,.,

↑ thunderstorm

Fri, May 04 2018, 9:44 am

shiaeisen wrote:

Actually you’re quite wrong; it IS our business, as we have sons and husbands who may be guilty of aveiros of looking or thinking lewd thoughts when seeing these types of dress on the streets, as well as, and more importantly, our halachic obligation to speak up when we see someone committing an aveira. Had I not been driving when I saw this woman, I might’ve stopped her, said hello, and delicately suggested that perhaps she might thing about adding to her mitzvah of covering her hair by also covering up a little more of the rest...it’s something that has to be done with sensitivity and diplomacy but nevertheless it is an obligation, no matter how uncomfortable.

Someone once did that to me . I was dressed in a robe on Shabbos fully tzniusdig according to how we hold. A woman who believes long robes are not tzniusdig walked over to me and told me that I'm being michshal other men and that I had no right to be dressed like that outside. Ever since then I have a very bitter taste in my mouth and think people that do this are only hurting people and not helping. There are many other ways to instill sensitivity to tznius.
And just like tznius is a bigger yetzer harah for women and we have to work on that , the men and boys too have to work on their shmiras aynayim. Stopping people on the street and telling them they are not following Halacha is hurtful to say the least and can be a BIG turn off to Yiddishkeit for some, causing them to commit much worse. Be careful in being righteous on someone else's cheshbon.

↑ shiaeisen

Fri, May 04 2018, 9:45 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

NO, THIS SHOULD NEVER BE DONE. EVER!!!!!! You are NOT the tzniut police. Someone did that to me. Very nicely. Wont tell you wgat I wanted to do and say yo her but lets just say it fid not make me want yo be more tzanua but less. Please, dont play god. You worry about yourself and let each person worry sbout themselves. To me somrone who would go over to someone and fo this is extremely rude and not something that is right to do.

You’re 100% wrong according to the Torah, and I believe the Torah more than your OPINION, but thanks anyway.

↑ watergirl ↓

Fri, May 04 2018, 9:47 am

shiaeisen wrote:

I said its a fact? I believe I said imo, which you’ve already quoted and called me on.

↑ relish

Fri, May 04 2018, 9:47 am

shiaeisen wrote:

Embarrassing? Who said anything about embarrassing? Had you read what I wrote with an open mind,instead of freaking out as you are...
...And I’d also suggest you delve into where your anger is coming from too,,.,

You just crossed a bold red line.

↑ jkl ↓

Fri, May 04 2018, 9:49 am

shiaeisen wrote:

Apparently you don't honor what you dish out. If anyone appears angry on this thread, it is you.

Being approached by a stranger on the street and being mussared that you're not dressed appropriately is embarrassing and shameful. There is no sensitive way and no diplomatic way to go about this, considering its a stranger to stranger.

Perhaps you should read the seforim on tochacha too. There are strict circumstances when one is allowed to do that.

↑ jkl

Fri, May 04 2018, 9:53 am

shiaeisen wrote:

You’re 100% wrong according to the Torah, and I believe the Torah more than your OPINION, but thanks anyway.

If you want to continuously mouth off to people, you really need to study and learn some more. Your interpretation of halacha also falls into the lines of of opinions. The Torah does NOT tell you to stop strangers on the street and give them tochachah.