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-> Yom Tov / Holidays
-> Succos
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amother
Olive
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 Sat, Sep 29 2018, 10:39 pm
| happyone wrote: | | Wow... just wow. Our grandparents are probably rolling in their graves (both European , any immigrants from other countries, and those raised in the US) at the attitude of "sukkah inconvenience " in a heavily Jewish populated area. Whether it's a double stroller, or a wheelchair/assistive device most can get around with a few foot detour. Just sitting here scratching my head... |
Um... my living grandfather who has mobility issues would more likely say - in my day sukkahs where built for homes and shuls. While getting very frustrated that he was put in a dangerous situation on the street.
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Iymnok
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Sun, Sep 30 2018, 6:26 am
It’s so cute how many are glorifying the "alte heim".
All our grandparents would prefer us alive and safe rather than have yet another sukkah cause resentment and pain, let alone the chillul Hashem.
A little detour is a big thing when you are navigating with a wheelchair or a double stroller with a couple kids holding onto the sides.
I still don’t get why they can’t rent a parking lot or otherwise find a safe comfortable location for a week.
Most of our grandparents would be appalled.
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watergirl
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Sun, Sep 30 2018, 8:28 am
| happyone wrote: | | Wow... just wow. Our grandparents are probably rolling in their graves (both European , any immigrants from other countries, and those raised in the US) at the attitude of "sukkah inconvenience " in a heavily Jewish populated area. Whether it's a double stroller, or a wheelchair/assistive device most can get around with a few foot detour. Just sitting here scratching my head... |
My grandparents would be quite upset at being forced into the street because of a sukkah that is sticking out too far. You seem to be missing the whole point of this vent. Its not about the sukkah being there! Its about the builder of the sukkah not caring enough about others to build it 3 feet smaller so people can walk on the sidewalk. Tell someone in a wheelchair that they can jump the curb and go into the street. Them jump it back UP (not easy!) onto the sidewalk. And this is the city so that means there are parked cars all along the curb that people have to squeeze through. How can a wheelchair do that? Come on - think! Be compassionate!
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amother
Puce
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Sun, Sep 30 2018, 9:05 am
| happyone wrote: | | Wow... just wow. Our grandparents are probably rolling in their graves (both European , any immigrants from other countries, and those raised in the US) at the attitude of "sukkah inconvenience " in a heavily Jewish populated area. Whether it's a double stroller, or a wheelchair/assistive device most can get around with a few foot detour. Just sitting here scratching my head... |
The sukkah permits are granted for a few days in advance. The sukkahs are built a bit earlier, but the panels are not allowed to be put up until a few days before. The sukkahs must be taken down right after yontiff or there are fines. If people aren't obeying the law, then turn them in. But watch out because then your neighbor will be turning you in for section 8 fraud or medicaid fraud or what have you.
If the sukkahs are legal, then you are inconvenienced. So walk in the designated walkways. Being a mother pushing a baby stroller is not a disability. Families of disabled mothers are not starving to death. Old disabled people aren't being killed by cars right and left.
Some of the ideas suggested are out there and cost prohibitive. No one is not going to use their real estate to the max so they can build a sukkah a couple weeks a year. That's just a foolish suggestion. Businesses and shuls will build sukkahs that suit the needs of their members and customers. Unlike what is being twisted on this thread, they are following halacha. I asked my rov. Other unrealistic suggestions are having businesses/shuls rent parking lots to build their sukkahs. Besides being costly, it is inconvenient. It not only effects the business in question, it effects all the other businesses around. Where do customers and employees park then if you take away their parking? You are creating dangerous traffic. Disabled mothers' children will starve. Disabled people will get killed in cross walks because of road rage from drivers unable to find spots. Those with COPD and asthma will sicken and die from the extra pollution.
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amother
Gold
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Sun, Sep 30 2018, 9:38 am
| amother wrote: | The sukkah permits are granted for a few days in advance. The sukkahs are built a bit earlier, but the panels are not allowed to be put up until a few days before. The sukkahs must be taken down right after yontiff or there are fines. If people aren't obeying the law, then turn them in. But watch out because then your neighbor will be turning you in for section 8 fraud or medicaid fraud or what have you.
If the sukkahs are legal, then you are inconvenienced. So walk in the designated walkways. Being a mother pushing a baby stroller is not a disability. Families of disabled mothers are not starving to death. Old disabled people aren't being killed by cars right and left.
Some of the ideas suggested are out there and cost prohibitive. No one is not going to use their real estate to the max so they can build a sukkah a couple weeks a year. That's just a foolish suggestion. Businesses and shuls will build sukkahs that suit the needs of their members and customers. Unlike what is being twisted on this thread, they are following halacha. I asked my rov. Other unrealistic suggestions are having businesses/shuls rent parking lots to build their sukkahs. Besides being costly, it is inconvenient. It not only effects the business in question, it effects all the other businesses around. Where do customers and employees park then if you take away their parking? You are creating dangerous traffic. Disabled mothers' children will starve. Disabled people will get killed in cross walks because of road rage from drivers unable to find spots. Those with COPD and asthma will sicken and die from the extra pollution. |
Hi Puce! Good to hear from you again!
I have particularly mentioned in a previous post that I would never report “turn in” another Jew and (again, what’s up with the stereotyping?) no one can “turn me” in for section 8 and Medicaid fraud because (drumrollllll) I pay my own rent and have Blue Cross insurance. I find your insinuation a bit offensive, tbh.
Aside from that, most people suggested having one big sukkah per avenue that would be on the sidewalk but not until the curb /gutter (gutter,guttter,gutter,gutter  ) which is a pretty reasonable suggestion.
Besides for which, using three extra parking spots probably won’t lead to the apocalyptic nightmare you’ve depicted 
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anon for this
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Sun, Sep 30 2018, 9:40 am
| amother wrote: | The sukkah permits are granted for a few days in advance. The sukkahs are built a bit earlier, but the panels are not allowed to be put up until a few days before. The sukkahs must be taken down right after yontiff or there are fines. If people aren't obeying the law, then turn them in. But watch out because then your neighbor will be turning you in for section 8 fraud or medicaid fraud or what have you.
If the sukkahs are legal, then you are inconvenienced. So walk in the designated walkways. Being a mother pushing a baby stroller is not a disability. Families of disabled mothers are not starving to death. Old disabled people aren't being killed by cars right and left.
Some of the ideas suggested are out there and cost prohibitive. No one is not going to use their real estate to the max so they can build a sukkah a couple weeks a year. That's just a foolish suggestion. Businesses and shuls will build sukkahs that suit the needs of their members and customers. Unlike what is being twisted on this thread, they are following halacha. I asked my rov. Other unrealistic suggestions are having businesses/shuls rent parking lots to build their sukkahs. Besides being costly, it is inconvenient. It not only effects the business in question, it effects all the other businesses around. Where do customers and employees park then if you take away their parking? You are creating dangerous traffic. Disabled mothers' children will starve. Disabled people will get killed in cross walks because of road rage from drivers unable to find spots. Those with COPD and asthma will sicken and die from the extra pollution. |
OP and others have described situations where succahs are put up before Rosh HaShanah, so that they're up for at least three weeks, not just a few days. Adequate designated walkways are not provided. This means that disabled people cannot travel on the sidewalk, and must switch between sidewalk and street. If curb cuts are blocked then disabled people cannot even do this. I do hope the "old disabled people" you refer to so dismissively will not risk injury, but they will probably have to avoid these streets altogether in order to stay safe. Of course this means that other businesses on the block will be affected since the "old disabled people" and people pushing strollers will probably choose to avoid those blocks during the month that the succahs are up.
My main concern is not just that "old disabled people" will be "killed by cars left and right" as you put it so cavalierly. I am more concerned that disabled people who don't know that the sidewalks are inaccessible, or have business on the block that can't wait a month, may be injured while trying to navigate a too-narrow sidewalk or moving a walker or wheelchair into the street without a curb cut.
I understand that you are frustrated about not being able to go to eat with your family. However, I still don't understand how you can worry about road rage and COPD and asthma but not recognize that safe navigable sidewalks are a necessity, particularly for "old disabled people".
The fact that halacha may allow it isn't the point. Safety is.
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Ruchel
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Sun, Sep 30 2018, 9:54 am
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So called alte heim... was a very diverse place. It's not what Imamother tells you. Also many of us still live there hello. MY great grandfather who was a Sefardic shamash, son of the chief rabbi, walked half an hour for it. That said I relate to not asking authorization.
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amother
Puce
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Sun, Sep 30 2018, 10:01 am
| anon for this wrote: | OP and others have described situations where succahs are put up before Rosh HaShanah, so that they're up for at least three weeks, not just a few days. Adequate designated walkways are not provided. This means that disabled people cannot travel on the sidewalk, and must switch between sidewalk and street. If curb cuts are blocked then disabled people cannot even do this. I do hope the "old disabled people" you refer to so dismissively will not risk injury, but they will probably have to avoid these streets altogether in order to stay safe. Of course this means that other businesses on the block will be affected since the "old disabled people" and people pushing strollers will probably choose to avoid those blocks during the month that the succahs are up.
My main concern is not just that "old disabled people" will be "killed by cars left and right" as you put it so cavalierly. I am more concerned that disabled people who don't know that the sidewalks are inaccessible, or have business on the block that can't wait a month, may be injured while trying to navigate a too-narrow sidewalk or moving a walker or wheelchair into the street without a curb cut.
I understand that you are frustrated about not being able to go to eat with your family. However, I still don't understand how you can worry about road rage and COPD and asthma but not recognize that safe navigable sidewalks are a necessity, particularly for "old disabled people".
The fact that halacha may allow it isn't the point. Safety is. |
The complainers are able bodied mothers with large strollers. The alta zadies and starving children of disabled mothers are not the clientele complaining here.
If some sukkahs are put up illegally, then turn them in. There are lots of illegal activities in the communities. But be prepared for you to be turned in. The sukkahs can only be put up when the permit says.
The walkways are designated adequate by NYC. The fact there are large strollers with kids hanging off them must be balanced against the religious needs and traffic needs and business needs of the entire area.
A disabled person would be able to have reasonable accommodations for their needs. Because ADA has made things easier for strollers does not make strollers a protected class.
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amother
Gold
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Sun, Sep 30 2018, 10:08 am
| amother wrote: | The complainers are able bodied mothers with large strollers. The alta zadies and starving children of disabled mothers are not the clientele complaining here.
If some sukkahs are put up illegally, then turn them in. There are lots of illegal activities in the communities. But be prepared for you to be turned in. The sukkahs can only be put up when the permit says.
The walkways are designated adequate by NYC. The fact there are large strollers with kids hanging off them must be balanced against the religious needs and traffic needs and business needs of the entire area.
A disabled person would be able to have reasonable accommodations for their needs. Because ADA has made things easier for strollers does not make strollers a protected class. |
Clearly you do not know the neighborhood/have not read everyone’s posts.
There. Are. No. Walkways. Most establishments haven’t bothered to make any adequate arrangements before yt for wheelchairs or strollers. I do not have children “hanging off” my stroller. Have some respect.
Once again, and I will repeat myself as many times as possible. No one is turning anyone in. And no one can turn me in because I haven’t done anything wrong. This isn’t a backstabbing, fraudulent, apocalyptic neighborhood.
We’re just asking people to be considerate, so why would we be inconsiderate ourselves by going straight to the government?
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anon for this
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Sun, Sep 30 2018, 10:26 am
| amother wrote: | The complainers are able bodied mothers with large strollers. The alta zadies and starving children of disabled mothers are not the clientele complaining here.
If some sukkahs are put up illegally, then turn them in. There are lots of illegal activities in the communities. But be prepared for you to be turned in. The sukkahs can only be put up when the permit says.
The walkways are designated adequate by NYC. The fact there are large strollers with kids hanging off them must be balanced against the religious needs and traffic needs and business needs of the entire area.
A disabled person would be able to have reasonable accommodations for their needs. Because ADA has made things easier for strollers does not make strollers a protected class. |
You're talking about two different situations. If the walkways are indeed deemed adequate by NYC, then I'm sure anyone in a walker or wheelchair can navigate the sidewalk, and curb cuts would be accessible as well. In which case there's no basis to turn anyone in. If someone would complain because the sidewalk, while adequate for a wheelchair, cannot accommodate her wider stroller, then she would be told that it's inconvenient but legal.
My mom uses a walker. If the designated walkway was not wide enough for her walker, or necessary curb cuts were blocked, that would be illegal. She probably wouldn't report a frum business anyway. But that doesn't change the fact that the business would be violating the law and posing a very real danger to pedestrians.
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amother
Puce
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Sun, Sep 30 2018, 10:39 am
| anon for this wrote: | You're talking about two different situations. If the walkways are indeed deemed adequate by NYC, then I'm sure anyone in a walker or wheelchair can navigate the sidewalk, and curb cuts would be accessible as well. In which case there's no basis to turn anyone in. If someone would complain because the sidewalk, while adequate for a wheelchair, cannot accommodate her wider stroller, then she would be told that it's inconvenient but legal.
My mom uses a walker. If the designated walkway was not wide enough for her walker, or necessary curb cuts were blocked, that would be illegal. She probably wouldn't report a frum business anyway. But that doesn't change the fact that the business would be violating the law and posing a very real danger to pedestrians. |
If the businesses are violating the laws and posing a danger to pedestrians, then the non--Jews will be turning them in. These sukkahs are not being built in walled ghettos.
It isn't nice having to step off a curb to the street and walk on narrow designated paths. But the religious needs must be weighed against the inconvenience.
Last year, I went out to eat in a sukkah built in the road in mid-town Manhatten. The sidewalk was left for the pedestrians, but the sukkah created situations where the drivers were angered. They banged on the sukkah while driving by. This was actually unsafe. I was told a guy got hurt while eating next to the wall. We were told not to eat near the walls.
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amother
Gold
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Sun, Sep 30 2018, 10:43 am
| amother wrote: | If the businesses are violating the laws and posing a danger to pedestrians, then the non--Jews will be turning them in. These sukkahs are not being built in walled ghettos.
It isn't nice having to step off a curb to the street and walk on narrow designated paths. But the religious needs must be weighed against the inconvenience.
Last year, I went out to eat in a sukkah built in the road in mid-town Manhatten. The sidewalk was left for the pedestrians, but the sukkah created situations where the drivers were angered. They banged on the sukkah while driving by. This was actually unsafe. I was told a guy got hurt while eating next to the wall. We were told not to eat near the walls. |
WHICH designated path?!
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amother
Gold
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Sun, Sep 30 2018, 10:44 am
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Religious needs can be met without the inconvenience.
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amother
Puce
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Sun, Sep 30 2018, 10:51 am
| amother wrote: | | Religious needs can be met without the inconvenience. |
How? None of the suggestions on this thead will be incorporated. You need reasonable suggestions.
The only thing I can see that would help besides turning in the evil sukkah builders who violate their permits would be to boycott the shuls and businesses that inconvenience the wide stroller moms. I can't imagine anyone would want to be the poster child for this campaign IRL.
Until women are willing to speak up IRL, then keep up the useless venting here.
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amother
Gold
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Sun, Sep 30 2018, 10:55 am
Huh? I am keeping up the useless venting here
There are also heimishe council members in the neighborhood who have been told about the general situation without names names, but it wasn’t an election year 
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anon for this
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Sun, Sep 30 2018, 10:59 am
| amother wrote: | If the businesses are violating the laws and posing a danger to pedestrians, then the non--Jews will be turning them in. These sukkahs are not being built in walled ghettos.
It isn't nice having to step off a curb to the street and walk on narrow designated paths. But the religious needs must be weighed against the inconvenience.
Last year, I went out to eat in a sukkah built in the road in mid-town Manhatten. The sidewalk was left for the pedestrians, but the sukkah created situations where the drivers were angered. They banged on the sukkah while driving by. This was actually unsafe. I was told a guy got hurt while eating next to the wall. We were told not to eat near the walls. |
Again, if someone using a wheelchair or walker can navigate the entire sidewalk and access any necessary curb cuts, there's no legal issue and anyone with a wider stroller must accept the inconvenience. But if not, then it isn't "not nice", it's dangerous. Personally I wouldn't want my family to use a succah that placed other people in danger.
A sukkah built on the road sounds very unsafe. I didn't know a business could even get a permit for it. How many lanes does it take up?
Maybe all the restaurants on the block can rent some space from a private lot for the week succos.
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amother
Maroon
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Sun, Sep 30 2018, 11:20 am
The non Jews won't turn anyone in because they know nothing will change. No one will do anything about it because those in charge need the frum vote. And even if illegal their complaint won't be acted upon for 2 weeks, the owner will be given 2 weeks to take it down... And even if it isn't done then it will take another week or so for the inspector to come back.
"Religious needs must be weighed against inconvenience"????
Where do you live? This is not the law or even a legal principle I have ever heard. The government cannot promote one religion over another. There cannot be a state sponsored religion. They cannot ban religious activity unless there is a competing societal need (if a religion mandated killing etc then they can ban that activity).
But do they need to allow every single business to violate ADA laws, safety codes etc so you are not inconvenienced?? There is again no NEED for these massive sukkahs, to block all the sidewalks...
They aren't banning the sukkah, just wanting it not to violate other laws and actual legal principles.
Bottom line:
They look the other way in NY because of the optics, the bad PR and because they want the votes. This is how many frum organizations, businesses, people etc get away with clearly illegal activities. If someone even threatens their actions, big ads and flyers go out: "Look they are hurting our kids, our schools, our stores...."
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amother
Gold
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Sun, Sep 30 2018, 11:35 am
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which Is why none of the heimishe elected officials will actually do anything bout this unless enough people complain and it’s an election year...
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amother
Puce
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Sun, Sep 30 2018, 12:53 pm
| amother wrote: | The non Jews won't turn anyone in because they know nothing will change. No one will do anything about it because those in charge need the frum vote. And even if illegal their complaint won't be acted upon for 2 weeks, the owner will be given 2 weeks to take it down... And even if it isn't done then it will take another week or so for the inspector to come back.
"Religious needs must be weighed against inconvenience"????
Where do you live? This is not the law or even a legal principle I have ever heard. The government cannot promote one religion over another. There cannot be a state sponsored religion. They cannot ban religious activity unless there is a competing societal need (if a religion mandated killing etc then they can ban that activity).
But do they need to allow every single business to violate ADA laws, safety codes etc so you are not inconvenienced?? There is again no NEED for these massive sukkahs, to block all the sidewalks...
They aren't banning the sukkah, just wanting it not to violate other laws and actual legal principles.
Bottom line:
They look the other way in NY because of the optics, the bad PR and because they want the votes. This is how many frum organizations, businesses, people etc get away with clearly illegal activities. If someone even threatens their actions, big ads and flyers go out: "Look they are hurting our kids, our schools, our stores...." |
There is always a balancing in law. It is so ingrained in our legal system that the fact you never heard of it makes me realize your legal education is lacking.
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amother
Gold
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Sun, Sep 30 2018, 12:55 pm
| amother wrote: | | There is always a balancing in law. It is so ingrained in our legal system that the fact you never heard of it makes me realize your legal education is lacking. |
A balance? Maybe in the law but not in the people who are supposedly following it.
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