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-> Interesting Discussions
amother
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Thu, Jul 18 2019, 8:37 pm
genius wrote: | According to this scenario the insulted woman is the protagonist and he is the antagonist. What I say is that he is the protagonist and I don't understand why she is insulted. other than that I'll go work on my middos.
maybe I got the story wrong. lemme go and read it again. |
Let's try this angle. The he woman is a bal gaaveh and doesn't know how to be dlz. The man is the one who is bringing his chumrohs to the table. Does that change the halachic obligations of the man? Can he now embarrass, insult, or hurt the woman, or should he find out if any of those scenarios override his chumrah?
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Mommyg8
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Thu, Jul 18 2019, 8:42 pm
SixOfWands wrote: | Its making a very public statement that you don't consider what others eat to be kosher.
Its not like saying I'm a vegetarian, or I don't eat lamb. It saying what you eat isn't kosher. Because if it were merely a chumra or stringency, you'd be able to eat something.
What would I do if my rabbi actually told me that there was nothing -- not fish, not a vegetarian dish, not a salad -- that I could eat at a restaurant that was otherwise widely considered kosher? I would make an excuse not to go. I certainly wouldn't sit there sipping water while everyone felt like I was judging them for eating what I deemed treyf.
I also would try not to put anyone in that position. |
I went back to read the original post because I didn't understand what you said, and now that I reread it I'm even more confused.
I have no way of knowing if the restaurant they went to was really not kosher, somewhat not kosher (they used rent-a-rabbi as their Rav hamachsher), or just not up to his chumros.
For arguments sake, let's assume he's not eating because of chumros. I have this scenario in my family a lot, as everyone eats different hechsherim. My brother, for example, has more chumros than we do. I think, that if we were making a family gathering, and we wanted to accommodate because we are menchlech people (people with good middos) we would make the family gathering at a place he would eat in. And I'm puzzled why anyone would do differently. Truly puzzled.
Of course he should go to a family gathering even if he doesn't eat the food. You really think it's better that he doesnt come at all? To a family get together? I'm really not following this.
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amother
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Thu, Jul 18 2019, 8:52 pm
Mommyg8 wrote: | I went back to read the original post because I didn't understand what you said, and now that I reread it I'm even more confused.
I have no way of knowing if the restaurant they went to was really not kosher, somewhat not kosher (they used rent-a-rabbi as their Rav hamachsher), or just not up to his chumros.
For arguments sake, let's assume he's not eating because of chumros. I have this scenario in my family a lot, as everyone eats different hechsherim. My brother, for example, has more chumros than we do. I think, that if we were making a family gathering, and we wanted to accommodate because we are menchlech people (people with good middos) we would make the family gathering at a place he would eat in. And I'm puzzled why anyone would do differently. Truly puzzled.
Of course he should go to a family gathering even if he doesn't eat the food. You really think it's better that he doesnt come at all? To a family get together? I'm really not following this. |
I hold - if I'm in a restaurant - I order something to eat. If for whatever reason I can't do that - I don't go.
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creditcards
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Thu, Jul 18 2019, 8:52 pm
amother [ Apricot ] wrote: | Because there may just be other actual Halachos to consider, and being a good Jew (and person) doesn't depend on a battle of wits or a battle or pride. Its depends on doing what's right in a particular situation, regardless of what the other person is doing. |
People who have certain chumros follow their chumros as if it's halachah. I know someone who eats only yashan and he wouldn't eat a cookie that's pas yisroel with the best hechsher when he was stuck in the hospital because it was not yoshan. Stop judging people. For him it's like he is breaking a halacha. When it comes to a point when person A gets insulted because person B doesn't want to break a halacha( that's how it is in his mind even though you think it's not halacha) then you just do what you gotta do and not worry about person B getting insulted. Not everything in life you have to change because it will bother another person. That's not what the halacha is asking us to do. If someone doesn't respect person B and then gets insulted because he didn't respect person B, person B doesn't have to now give up his standards because non respecting person got insulted.
Last edited by creditcards on Thu, Jul 18 2019, 8:57 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Mommyg8
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Thu, Jul 18 2019, 8:53 pm
amother [ Linen ] wrote: | I hold - if I'm in a restaurant - I order something to eat. If for whatever reason I can't do that - I don't go. |
So explain yourself. Why would you do that? What's the reasoning?
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amother
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Thu, Jul 18 2019, 8:53 pm
Mommyg8 wrote: | I went back to read the original post because I didn't understand what you said, and now that I reread it I'm even more confused.
I have no way of knowing if the restaurant they went to was really not kosher, somewhat not kosher (they used rent-a-rabbi as their Rav hamachsher), or just not up to his chumros.
For arguments sake, let's assume he's not eating because of chumros. I have this scenario in my family a lot, as everyone eats different hechsherim. My brother, for example, has more chumros than we do. I think, that if we were making a family gathering, and we wanted to accommodate because we are menchlech people (people with good middos) we would make the family gathering at a place he would eat in. And I'm puzzled why anyone would do differently. Truly puzzled.
Of course he should go to a family gathering even if he doesn't eat the food. You really think it's better that he doesnt come at all? To a family get together? I'm really not following this. |
Your situation is different than the other described situation. It's not a comparison. So the answer to your question is that the proper response is dependent on the situation. With a family like yours, with everyone readily accommodates one another, there isn't even a question if he should or shouldn't follow his chumrohs.
But if someone's family is not so easygoing, and feathers easily get ruffled, then one should ask a Rav what is the proper way of handling a situation - especially if other halachos are relevant to the situation.
Why must there be a one size fits all answer here?
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Mommyg8
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Thu, Jul 18 2019, 8:57 pm
amother [ Linen ] wrote: | Basically he's saying - I can't trust that food is kosher. That's all it is. Can we be straight about it. |
Why do you feel that way?
We must be coming from very different cultures. Where I live it's very common for different people (and families) to have different stringencies. Someone who is makpid on Cholov Yisroel, for example, would not drink Cholov Stam even if they were stranded on a desert island. It's a chumrah for some, halacha for others. Why is this hard to understand?
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veiznisht
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Thu, Jul 18 2019, 8:58 pm
amother [ Apricot ] wrote: | The issue I have with the extra stringencies that people take upon themselves is that sometimes they double down on them while forgetting other halachos that are equally or possibly even more relevant to the situation. Not hurting people, not embarrassing people are actual halachos and in tough situations everything needs to be considered.
I find that people so desperately want respect and accommodations for the chumros or some particular beliefs, they go to extremes to defend their positions. They end up embarrassing others in public, destroy shalom and talk lashon hora in defense of their choices. If one knows that challenging situations will present themselves, then one needs to ask shailohs and figure our a proper strategy. You'd be surprised how many times a Rav will tell someone to put aside the chumrah in deference to the other halachos. |
I hear what you are saying here and I truly struggle with this issue myself. I find myself thinking "how can he be such a huge masmid but also think it's okay to not obey basic US laws? How can she be so frum, skirt X length, no makeup, but be so rude to fellow yidden?
Truth is, none of that is really my business. Who am I to say that it's not worth anything for someone to keep a stringency but be lenient in another area? For myself surely I have to weigh that but for me to think negatively of someone else... that's getting in the middle of their relationship with Hashem. That's not really for me to judge.
Surely we all have areas of avodas Hashem we are weaker and those we are stronger. How can I judge anyone else because of what I see as being a failing area, but clearly I'm not perfect and I have my own chumras?
As I said, I'm equally guilty of this, but it's something I'd like to work on.
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amother
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Thu, Jul 18 2019, 8:59 pm
creditcards wrote: | People who have certain chumros follow their chumros as if it's halachah. I know someone who eats only yashan and he wouldn't eat a cookie that's pas yisroel with the best hechsher when he was stuck in the hospital because it was not yoshan. Stop judging people. For him it's like he is breaking a halacha. When it comes to a point when another person gets insulted because he doesn't want to break a halacha( that's how it is in his mind even though you think it's not halacha) then you just do what you gotta do and not worry about the other person. Not everything in life you have to change because it will bother another person. That's not what the halacha is asking us to do. If someone doesn't respect another and gets insulted because he didn't respect the person, the person doesn't have to now give up his standards because non respecting person got insulted. |
I'm not judging at all. All I said was that if someone finds themselves in this situation, then he should ask a Rav. Many times he will be told to forgo his chumroh in favor of other halachos or he will be advised the best way to handle it to minimize the negative effects.
Just because he may feel like he is breaking a halacha, still doesn't mean forcing his way is the right move. Feeling like breaking a non-existent halacha or thinking one is breaking a non-existent halacha doesn't override violating an actual halacha. Creating one's own personal Torah doesn't override the actual Torah either.
Pray tell me, what is wrong with finding out if there is a situation where one is expected to put his chumrohs aside?
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amother
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Thu, Jul 18 2019, 8:59 pm
Mommyg8 wrote: | So explain yourself. Why would you do that? What's the reasoning? |
The business of the restaurant is to sell and serve me food. If I'm not going to eat, I don't belong. I just don't think its appropriate.
It can make people sitting around eating uncomfortable to have a person at the table not partaking - but for me that's secondary.
If I'm alone on this way of thinking - so be it.
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creditcards
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Thu, Jul 18 2019, 9:01 pm
amother [ Apricot ] wrote: | Your situation is different than the other described situation. It's not a comparison. So the answer to your question is that the proper response is dependent on the situation. With a family like yours, with everyone readily accommodates one another, there isn't even a question if he should or shouldn't follow his chumrohs.
But if someone's family is not so easygoing, and feathers easily get ruffled, then one should ask a Rav what is the proper way of handling a situation - especially if other halachos are relevant to the situation.
Why must there be a one size fits all answer here? |
Maybe he asked and his Rav told him to go and just sip water?
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Mommyg8
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Thu, Jul 18 2019, 9:01 pm
amother [ Apricot ] wrote: | Your situation is different than the other described situation. It's not a comparison. So the answer to your question is that the proper response is dependent on the situation. With a family like yours, with everyone readily accommodates one another, there isn't even a question if he should or shouldn't follow his chumrohs.
But if someone's family is not so easygoing, and feathers easily get ruffled, then one should ask a Rav what is the proper way of handling a situation - especially if other halachos are relevant to the situation.
Why must there be a one size fits all answer here? |
But isn't that the point of the OP? That people are NOT tolerant of someone who is frummer than them? And this was just one example.
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veiznisht
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Thu, Jul 18 2019, 9:06 pm
amother [ Apricot ] wrote: | I'm not judging at all. All I said was that if someone finds themselves in this situation, then he should ask a Rav. Many times he will be told to forgo his chumroh in favor of other halachos or he will be advised the best way to handle it to minimize the negative effects.
Just because he may feel like he is breaking a halacha, still doesn't mean forcing his way is the right move. Feeling like breaking a non-existent halacha or thinking one is breaking a non-existent halacha doesn't override violating an actual halacha. Creating one's own personal Torah doesn't override the actual Torah either.
Pray tell me, what is wrong with finding out if there is a situation where one is expected to put his chumrohs aside? |
Let's be clear, you are judging. It is natural to be fair. But your entire premise assumes he didn't already ask a Rav.
I agree with you that a Rav might say someone is being more stringent than need be, but I, looking at another person, have no right to assume they haven't already asked, that they just hold differently. In the same way, I am shouldn't look at someone with a shorter skirt than me, and assume she doesn't have a rav who says that is okay. Therein lies the double standard.
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Mommyg8
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Thu, Jul 18 2019, 9:08 pm
amother [ Linen ] wrote: | The business of the restaurant is to sell and serve me food. If I'm not going to eat, I don't belong. I just don't think its appropriate.
It can make people sitting around eating uncomfortable to have a person at the table not partaking - but for me that's secondary.
If I'm alone on this way of thinking - so be it. |
So you're saying that if your family has a get together, and you're not hungry that day, you call your family and say you're not going? Or do you come anyway even if you cant eat? Most normal people would go anyway, even if they can't eat, which is why I find your attitude ... interesting.
In actual fact I have a relative who won't eat in my house or at any of my simchos because we're not healthy enough. So she comes and just sips water... I would be very insulted if she didn't show up at all (this is a close relative).
Are both these scenarios different to the one where the man won't eat because of kashrus? If so, how?
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amother
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Thu, Jul 18 2019, 9:12 pm
Mommyg8 wrote: | But isn't that the point of the OP? That people are NOT tolerant of someone who is frummer than them? And this was just one example. |
This example is a poor example of that. The family members are reacting towards the implications that their food is not kosher, or the insult of their food not being eaten. They're not really on a war path (at least in most cases) to antagonize him just for being more frum. They're not acting on the offense - "hey, here comes Moshe with his frum meshugas, let's make life difficult for him". They're responding defensively to the implications his actions are sending. They're on the defense, not the offense. And that's key here. If they'd be on the offense, they'd be non-tolerant. If they're defending themselves, tolerance is not really the issue.
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amother
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Thu, Jul 18 2019, 9:24 pm
veiznisht wrote: | Let's be clear, you are judging. It is natural to be fair. But your entire premise assumes he didn't already ask a Rav.
I agree with you that a Rav might say someone is being more stringent than need be, but I, looking at another person, have no right to assume they haven't already asked, that they just hold differently. In the same way, I am shouldn't look at someone with a shorter skirt than me, and assume she doesn't have a rav who says that is okay. Therein lies the double standard. |
Sorry, don't agree. When discussing & analyzing a scenario, it's perfectly non-judgmental to state your opinion what the right move would be, without deciphering if that particular person has or has not made the move. (And scroll back to see that others have made that point as well - "I wonder if he'd has asked his Rav".)
And its even more so appropriate to point out that the said scenario has nothing to do with tolerance, and has much more to do so with hurt or insulted feelings.
Neither approach is judgmental.
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amother
Jade
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Thu, Jul 18 2019, 9:35 pm
amother [ Cerulean ] wrote: | I'm sorry you feel that you are being treated badly. If I understand your post, you had your daughter wait in line while you continued shopping. That's not considered acceptable in any of the places I shop.
And maybe what you heard as a condescending tone of voice was her trying to accommodate you because she thought that English isn't your first language.
I'm not saying no one is ever rude, just not really seeing it in your post. |
That’s pretty rude!
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Flip Flops
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Thu, Jul 18 2019, 9:35 pm
If the roles would be reversed and the women would be vegetarian and not eat by the man's simcha, trust me, the man would not give a flip.
Somehow when it comes to him being more frum or having a chumra she gets all insulted.
Perhaps because she feels defensive?
I know many people who have chumros with what they eat and won't eat by other people. Nobody minds at all and they would definitely not think of feeling insulted.
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amother
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Thu, Jul 18 2019, 9:36 pm
Mommyg8 wrote: | So you're saying that if your family has a get together, and you're not hungry that day, you call your family and say you're not going? Or do you come anyway even if you cant eat? Most normal people would go anyway, even if they can't eat, which is why I find your attitude ... interesting.
In actual fact I have a relative who won't eat in my house or at any of my simchos because we're not healthy enough. So she comes and just sips water... I would be very insulted if she didn't show up at all (this is a close relative).
Are both these scenarios different to the one where the man won't eat because of kashrus? If so, how? |
I would order something, nibble and take it home. There is very rarely a time when I am incapable of putting food in my mouth unless I'm ill.
Your examples didn't mention restaurants.
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urban gypsy
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Fri, Jul 19 2019, 8:58 am
creditcards wrote: | That was not nice, and I don't consider embarrassing someone in public being Adam lachaveiro. |
It was his daughter, and he was an extremely warm, sweet and caring person otherwise, and a very important Rav in the community besides. Obviously in this situation he believed the lesson was important enough to make a big deal about it, and I have remembered it all these years later.
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