Open Minded to less frum... and more??

Flip Flops

Wed, Jul 17 2019, 5:28 pm

We hear it so much today. Being open minded to Jews on all levels, accepting of those who have different standards than us... Yet somehow I feel like people only act this way toward those who are less frum than them.
The many people out there who go around saying, "I'm so open minded" only use this in reference to those who are less frum and have lower standards, not more frum. These same "open minded" people are so quick to scorn, put down or make fun of those who are more frum or have higher standards.
It's like, G-d forbid to make a condescending remark about your more modern cousin, but feel free to make fun of your yeshivish neighbor. Why??

amother

Linen

Wed, Jul 17 2019, 5:30 pm

Flip Flops wrote:

Its really hard for a person assess if they are actually 'open minded' - unless someone challenges them on a specific issue.

I'm not into "open minded" just for the sake of "open minded".

I do however despise the term "higher standards".

amother

Seafoam

Wed, Jul 17 2019, 5:31 pm

I agree 100%. I find the more people claim to be open minded the less open minded they usually are. The most open minded people generally don't feel the need to constantly let everyone know how open minded they are.

Ravenclaw

Wed, Jul 17 2019, 5:54 pm

True. People are human and biases will always be there.
The key is to be aware of your personal biases.

amother

Olive

Wed, Jul 17 2019, 5:58 pm

Often "higher standards" are just different norms, but phrased condescendingly.

southernbubby

Wed, Jul 17 2019, 5:58 pm

In what realm does the open-mindedness take place?
Parents and kids?
Relationships with neighbors?
Shidduchim?
What bungalow colony to buy in?
What school to send to, stores to shop in, professionals to use?

Flip Flops

Wed, Jul 17 2019, 6:00 pm

amother [ Linen ] wrote:

I do however despise the term "higher standards".

We all hate that term when it comes along with a holier than thou attitude.
But it very often does not.

amother

Linen

Wed, Jul 17 2019, 6:02 pm

amother [ Olive ] wrote:

Often "higher standards" are just different norms, but phrased condescendingly.

Agree. Which leads to 'if you are going to be looking down on me and how I dress, with my 'lower standards' why on earth do you think I'm going to be "open minded" about you.

But I'm not into "open mindedness" particularly.

amother

Linen

Wed, Jul 17 2019, 6:03 pm

Flip Flops wrote:

We all hate that term when it comes along with a holier than thou attitude.
But it very often does not.

Is there not a better way to say it like "we hold on a more stringent definition of what it means to dress modestly"

amother

Peach

Wed, Jul 17 2019, 6:08 pm

I don't feel that way in this site at all.
1) I don't think I (MO) are "less frum" than some chassidishe or Lakewood. 70 panim laTorah, it is a different face and a different interpretation. Not wrong, different. I always treat everyone with respect but I do not feel that I am treated as such in return.
I feel that here (and if I go to boro park / Lakewood/ Monsey... I am treated with distain, I really hate going. I dress per their tznius guidelines, but maybe not they community norm. (I wear a black skirt and tights as opposed to navy skirt and palm stockings. My hair is covered, but not double...). In Woodbury commons, people have been downright nasty (but not just to me, to non-Jewish sales associates as well)
On this site- different is considered less. My DD learning Gemara is not less that whichever school yours attends.
I will say, EVERY Chabad woman I have met in real life has just been a lovely Kiddush Hashem.

I think it is super important to treat everyone with respect.

amother

Linen

Wed, Jul 17 2019, 6:09 pm

Open mindedness comes into place at my dinner table. When trying to get my young child to eat something green (child has something against green food) - I try to get child to clear her mind over her preconceived ideas that green food is bad - and just give this yummy food a chance.

tichellady

Wed, Jul 17 2019, 6:25 pm

You are right. I try not to be like this but sometimes I am

thunderstorm

Wed, Jul 17 2019, 6:28 pm

To be very honest, I personally have a hard time being open minded towards people with “higher standards” when they don’t come across as authentic and sincere in what they are doing. Sometimes it’s all a show. But if you are real and live on a higher standard than me and you practice what you preach , I actually admire you greatly.

Fox

Wed, Jul 17 2019, 6:30 pm

I think a better way to frame it is in terms of "different sensitivities."

Depending on the community you grew up in; your family's particular practices and quirks; the era and geographic location in which you grew up; and your own personality, there may be things that disturb you that are not equally disturbing to other people, and vice versa.

The mistake is thinking that your own sensitivities are the "right" ones, and everyone else just needs to work on themselves. The fact is that all of us have areas in which we're too lax and areas in which we are sometimes overzealous.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with acknowledging your own sensitivities or lack thereof.

It's okay to say, "It's true. I should probably be more concerned about exposing my kids to X, Y, or Z, but I don't notice it so much myself and I find it hard to remember that type of sensitivity."

Instead, we tend to rationalize our shortcomings and act self-righteously about the things that come easily.
______________________

There is also the issue of "acceptance." Urban Gypsy wrote on another thread about the inherent difficulty in defining the word. Tolerance, acceptance, and affirmation are very, very different from one another.

I recently had an online exchange with some people who were intermarried and were angry about the "intolerance" they experienced from the observant Jewish world. When I asked them to explain how this intolerance was manifested, it became very clear that they experienced no intolerance whatsoever. In fact, they experienced very little lack of acceptance. Rather, they wanted affirmation, and that was something they were not going to get.

Of course, their argument was that love is more important than religion, and we're wrong not to affirm their marriages. I obviously disagreed, but more importantly, I pointed out that the refusal to give someone affirmation about their choices is not the same as intolerance.

In a multicultural, urban society, we are required to be tolerant. We are required to accept the reality that not everyone shares our values and sensitivities. However, we are not require to affirm what other people do.

Often, people mistake politeness and tolerance/acceptance for affirmation. In fact, they often do so right up until the moment you explain, that no, you can't get permission from a rabbi to eat at a treif restaurant just this once or to attend your third cousin's marriage to a non-Jew or allow the workmen to finish up your tuckpointing on Shabbos. The degree of insularity in your life may change the questions, but it doesn't change the answers.

It's possible to convey acceptance without affirmation, but that's usually unsatisfying to people who feel guilty about what they're doing in the first place. They want affirmation, and you're under no obligation to give them that.

FranticFrummie

Wed, Jul 17 2019, 6:49 pm

Fox wrote:

It's possible to convey acceptance without affirmation, but that's usually unsatisfying to people who feel guilty about what they're doing in the first place. They want affirmation, and you're under no obligation to give them that.

This particular part of your post is the perfect answer to the thread about BT parents and OTD children.

You can accept your child, and not affirm their choices. Depending on the situation, you may not even tolerate their choices, and still accept and love your child. If you have a good relationship with your child, they will not ask for blanket approval for choices that are not in alignment with your values.

It's the difference between saying "You are a bad child", and saying "You made a bad choice." One is a personal attack, the other is an opinion about something that happened.

amother

Seashell

Wed, Jul 17 2019, 9:26 pm

Why do I have a hard time loving people who "knowingly" go against the torah, ppl who have no problem hurting individuals or the klal but expect all of klal yisroel to love them in return?
they forget every halacha but they don't let me forget the v'havta
I would love to consider myself open minded but I have a hard time with this particular set.
I am not talking about ppl who struggle and are searching for their truth. I'm specifically talking about the lhachisnikas (however that's supposed to be spelled.)

amother

Cerulean

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 12:19 am

The answer lies in the way you phrased the question. You automatically assume that a certain lifestyle is more or less frum than another. What if you could appreciate difference without assuming a hierarchy?

creditcards

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 12:27 am

amother [ Peach ] wrote:

That's so cool your DD learning Gemara. I wish I can also learn Gemara! I wouldn't understand the first word! ( I was always very booksmart )

amother

Linen

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 12:56 am

creditcards wrote:

That's so cool your DD learning Gemara. I wish I can also learn Gemara! I wouldn't understand the first word! ( I was always very booksmart )

recommend reading "if all the seas were ink".

creditcards

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 1:21 am

amother [ Linen ] wrote:

recommend reading "if all the seas were ink".

What type of book is that?