Welcome to THE coolest Frum fashion and lifestyle blog!

penguin

Tue, Jun 14 2011, 7:04 pm

Quote:

So I should get rid of my denim skirts and moc crocs?

asks Pink Fridge, pointing out that there are different types of clothing one wears for visiting gedolim and for doing sponga.

So, let's say you took your kids to the playground (planning, we presume, that you might get into the sandbox with them, otherwise, why wouldn't you be in heels and a suit?)

And, it just so happens that DH is walking his Rosh Yeshiva home and passes your way, and decides to ask said Rosh Yeshivat to bentsch your yummy children with success and Yiras Shomayim, and, look out, they're coming into the playground.

So, if you feel the need to hunch over because your denim skirt doesn't quite cover your knees, and to majorly adjust your head-covering because you were only at the park & nobody could see you anyhow, and while you're at it you quickly button the second to top button on your polo shirt (because it was hot in the sun and you needed air, and nobody was there to see you anyhow), well, then I guess you feel like you were not appropriately dresses at the park, which was highlighted when you saw DH's Rosh Yeshiva approaching. And if you kind of feel the need to dig your feet into the sandbox so he won't see your red toenail polish, well, go right ahead.

But it you just smile and nod at his approach because you are confident that you know you're a bas Melech who's appropriately dressed for the place you are, then, Kol haKovod to you, you know yourself and you're comfortable in your own skin and its outer shell.

amother

Tue, Jun 14 2011, 9:11 pm

Quote:

I would have to say that if they build wedding halls, and book them for us treifeneh Litvaks, they are willing to have us get out of our cars in our less than bullet-proof stockings, possibly 3/4 sleeves, & long, uncovered shaitlach. Must be, no? I will have to run this by my Rov next time I can get him on the phone!

I really don't get what you're trying to say with your post. But don't make it worse that it is. You can walk around with 3/4 sleeves in Monroe and obviously a long ucovered shaitel and no bullet proof stockings isn't treife in Willy as plenty of people there wear it.

shlomitsmum

Tue, Jun 14 2011, 9:31 pm

hipstamom wrote:

Ah... reading this makes me nostalgic about my fashion blog. Yeah, I probably started one of the first tznius fashion blogs. I started mine for similar reasons... I wanted to express my personal style and not wear "the uniform."

I think where people get confused (yeah, I said it) is differentiating what is halacha and personal taste. People who prefer dressing in classic styles are going to screech "that's not tznius." People who dress trendy are going to roll their eyes and say "that's too boring."

Wearing what you like, smile, and go on about your business!

Very true... on my blog I try to feature style diversity ,but I find my personal bohemian style is often reflected on my choices.

hipstamom

Wed, Jun 15 2011, 2:37 am

amother wrote:

But Tznius is a Mitzvah. It is not about how a woman personally feels or about bounderies.... it is Halachah and we dont get a choice on how we personally wish to follow it.

When one wears anything that draws attention to herself such as tight clothing, or "pencil skirts, sequins (more than a minimum etc), wedge heels" those are all defeating the point of Tznius.

Kashrut is a mitzvah and women choose what to cook in their kitchen. You don't cook/eat the same things day in, day out do you? People choose to keep stam or CY and hold by certain hechshers. Of course people have a choice in what they wish to follow.

(Overly) tight clothing is a halachic/minhag issue. Sequins/wedge heels is a matter of taste (personally, I don't like sequins much either because they look cheesy.)

Isramom8

Wed, Jun 15 2011, 7:06 am

Dressing appropriately for different occasions reminds me of the time I left my baby with a not-too-frum babysitter/friend. I mentioned that I'd put on my frum clothes to go to Bnei Brak. She said, "Excuse me for asking, but aren't all your clothes frum clothes?"

Well yes, I'd like to think so, but in Bnei Brak my blouse should be muted and all buttoned up, and my skirt exactly midcalf, etc.

To a DL simcha, it's better to go a little more light and colorful.

If the Rosh Yeshiva arrives at the park, sure you can feel confident if you are dressed down, as long as you are halachically covered.

amother

Wed, Jun 15 2011, 10:10 am

I would definitely change my clothing depending on where I'm going. I wear open toe shoes in summer and I feel 100% comfortable doing so. Even when I was a somewhat new BT and a little overboard in certain areas, I still wore them. However, I'm completely aware that in certain communities, I would be stared at and shown disapproval. They have different standards and it's a matter of respect and me wanting to feel comfortable in their presence. Why would I want them judging me on my toes? It's a matter of not wanting to feel out of place, not admitting that I'm dressed inappropriately.

Lady Godiva

Wed, Jun 15 2011, 2:49 pm

amother wrote:

I don't understand the bolded.
Why should I have to "respect" somebody by not wearing my toes out Rolling Eyes

in front of them, just because they don't do the same?
Why, instead, can't they respect me, and see me as an equal, and not one who is less than them because they choose to follow stricter guidelines?

hipstamom

Wed, Jun 15 2011, 3:44 pm

Lady Godiva wrote:

amother wrote:

I don't understand the bolded.
Why should I have to "respect" somebody by not wearing my toes out Rolling Eyes

People are hard-wired to be judgmental; it's one of the quirks of free will. Some people are on a higher level and ooze ahavas out of the pores. Others have the nisayon of judging unfavorably.

hipstamom

Wed, Jun 15 2011, 4:13 pm

amother wrote:

I have to admit I find the thought the response that "black and white is not winning many converts" slightly ludicrous.
halacha does not change based on whether it is winning converts it never has and it never will.
I once heard a speach from Rabbi Akiva Tatz explaining this in depth how basically Judaisim is concerned with quality not quantity.
As other posters have written. we do not have to bash others for their nisyonos but please those who have nisyonos should really refrain from "changing the goal posts".
Don't maka what is wrong right and then act as if what is clear is not so clear.
That is the tool of the Yetzer Horah as explained by many of the great mussar seforim.
To wear tight clothing is not tznius.
To wear Bright flashy clothing that is basically designed to attract attention is against the very essence of Tznius.
This is clear, perfectly clear to anyone willing to really examine the issue.
We may have nisyonos keeping this in mind every day and each and every person deals with their nisyonos in their own way.
However if we start saying what is wrong is right then it leaves the realm of a "test" and determines that it is a "fait accompli" the Yetzer Horah has won.

I agree with most of what you are saying. Maybe you would like to clarify this for me. How can individuals change the goal posts when fashion by nature is ever changing?

I think bright/flashy is subjective. What isn't subjective is attracting attention. For example, I'm dark-skinned, magenta (a bright pink) would complement my skin. Why? Because my deeper skin tone can handle intense colors w/o attracting attention. Magenta on a light/medium skin tones would bright/flashy. Does that make sense?

Dressing appropriately just shows you have respect for yourself. Wearing ill-fitting, dirty/stained sacks is not tznius either. Even the most stringent rav will tell you this. Denim, skirt styles, classic/trendy, designer brands (yes that includes Burberry Tongue Out

) etc... are subjective choices. You can use halacha to justify them but don't act like it's not a personal/community choice.

amother

Wed, Jun 15 2011, 4:40 pm

So would you say seksy is subjective? Or if 85% of men think a particular look is seksy, should women refrain from wearing it? What if 85% of women their mother's age think so?

Does a person have the objective ability to know if something is too much, or is it preferable to ask someone you respect (not necessarily someone dowdy, but someone you feel looks bakovodik) if an outfit or look crosses the line?

We know we all have a Yetzer Hora. Why would we not suspect our Yetzer Hora of trying to tempt us to look too .... tempting?

Isramom8

Wed, Jun 15 2011, 4:44 pm

amother wrote:

I half joke that anything babies grab at on our clothes should not be worn, because men are like babies, and it will attract them too.

hipstamom

Wed, Jun 15 2011, 5:15 pm

amother wrote:

Great question! I would say sessyness is somewhat subjective!

There was an horrific article published last month in Psychology Today that asked why are African-American woman are unattractive. Reprint of "Why Are Black Women Rated Less Physically Attractive Than Other Women?" They had to take it down because it was THAT offensive.

Every culture has standards of beauty that's obvious. Men are visual creatures and if they see eye candy they will look at it. I think some people have the objective/innate ability to know what is too sessy. Others should consult someone who looks "bakovodik" (what does that mean BTW?) I'm assuming that means looking classy and put together.

ITA the Yetzer Hora can/does tempt people to cross the line when it comes to looking too tempting.

sharonlangert

Wed, Jun 15 2011, 7:27 pm

Ya know why tznius is being compared to ahavas yisroel here? In my opinion...everyone has the right to their own opinion. DO WHATEVER YOU FEEL IS RIGHT!! The problem occurrs when we start force feeding our opinions on others. Some pple will never understand me and I will never understand some people. So yes. When you are so narrowminded that you believe it is your way or the highway and you can not be open to the fact that there are other types and that in todays world we really don't know everything and there are no neviim and we have all been educated differently based on our schools, parents and upbringing....then our test is to love EVERY JEW even if they don't agree or do the same as you. Don't try to change people...look inward and change yourself. Be an example to others. I promise you not one person will change because of your mussar shmoozes no matter how much you talk about your views on Halachah. (The women who need the tznius asifas aren't going anywhere near them with 5 mile poles I can promise you that! Those asifas are filled with the most tznius women in the world...religious fundementalists who believe its only their way or nothing!) Hate to break it to you but Hashem loves every single Jew and what is easy for you may not be easy for someone else and vice versa. So keep tznius to your standards and be kind and love your neighbor even if you feel she doesn't live up to them!!

imaima

Thu, Jun 16 2011, 4:32 am

amother wrote:

sexyness is subjective. You know there are men who only rape women in nude stockings? Maybe they are not normal but that is the way they function! And so, if one day there is a maniac who is only attracted to women in wigs, long skirts and bulletproof stockings, will our standards change???

And what does sexiness have to do with anything, if it is said that it is between you and Hashem, and even if you are alone in your house, you still need to be tzanua and so on? Sexyness is in the eyes of the beholder, and tzniyut is not about the beholder, it is about the inner state of the woman and the way she ants to represent it.

imaima

Thu, Jun 16 2011, 5:00 am

[quote="PinkFridge"]

amother wrote:

My DD had a friend over yesterday. The girl knows DD's father is a Rosh Yeshiva. She came in thongs (no stockings, obviously), and when she sat down, her knees (and more) were not covered.]

My kids told me that we don't say thongs anymore. Flip flops are better, even if they cost more than my first car.
Well said all around. And the four inch rule is...useful.. but the more important rule is the "sit down like you always sit even though right now you are sitting like the lady I always tell you to sit like you and I know that you don't and won't and you look very uncomfortable and robotic too while I'm at it."

you must be kidding! did she mean flip-flops when she said thong???? I totally thought she meant she could see her underwear. So I was wondering, how cares about her knees if she could see the thong?!??!?! LOL