Spinoff of unnecessary expenses - kallah jewelry

amother

Brown

Mon, Jan 02 2017, 11:13 am

We were pressured to give $1,000 toward my sister in law to help her as she was making a wedding. We were told by family members how much she is struggling and she really needs help and we are her family so we must pitch in for each other.

We then heard that she bought the chosson a $1,200 menorah because "everyone gets that and she has to do the same". The boy was also from a "rebbe" family and I have no idea why he had such standards or people said he did?? I had a really hard time after I heard that and a lot of resentment because I never get gifts from my husband but felt like I was buying gifts for someone else's spouse! I was really upset.

But then there are stories of people who need $$ and really use it properly. I don't think it should stop anyone from giving hachnosas kallah, but it should make one be careful on who its used or how its used to the degree possible.

amother

Cerulean

Mon, Jan 02 2017, 11:15 am

Squishy wrote:

Your story is similar to mine. When it works, it is beautiful. Did you get kallah jewelry?

No, but I'm not chassidish.
DH proposed with another piece of jewelry, which was not a ring. It was beautiful, but would have preferred a ring to be honest... His reasoning was that he couldn't afford a really nice ring and didn't want to get me a "cheap" one. He asked his rabbi for advice instead of asking me what I would have preferred and well... 2 men talking about women's jewelry came up with the alternate jewelry as a solution.
I ended up getting an inexpensive silver and CZ ring that passed just fine as the real thing. I was living OOT and wanted to show all my friends and coworkers that I was finally engaged! No one would have taken me seriously if I didn't have a ring. I admit that I cared at the time. It's not the same to announce you're engaged and show off a necklace or something. I also just imagined my whole life that I'd get proposed to with a ring.
I still don't have an expensive ring. I just wear the band DH gave to me under the chuppah, which is fine and meaningful etc. Every once in a while DH says he'll get me a nice ring one day but I don't want him to feel bad so I say it's not a big deal, don't worry about it etc. I don't really care THAT much, but a tiny part of me wishes I had a nice ring too, like everyone else...

amother

Tangerine

Mon, Jan 02 2017, 12:40 pm

Fox wrote:

In a different time and place, a kallah's jewelry was the couples savings account, IRA, 401K, and Vanguard account. It was also the financial foundation for a new life should they have to escape and build a new life in a different country.

It is not hard to understand how this custom became entrenched. We have all heard stories or known women who sold their jewelry to escape from Europe on the eve of the Holocaust. I've personally known three women who removed the stones from their settings and literally swallowed them in order to escape from Arab countries with something of value.

In that context, it made sense for families to overextend themselves to buy jewelry for kallah.

On one hand, we should never become so comfortable in galus that we can't imagine prying the diamonds out of our rings and using them to finance our families' flight from persecution.

On the other hand, it's obvious that most 20-year-old kallahs in 2017 are not thinking of their jewelry as a safety net.

The question we have to ask is, "What is the real purpose of these gifts in our times?"

If the answer is, "To make the kallah feel good and give her something pretty to wear," then it makes sense to open up a mutual fund account in her name and give her good fakes. There are outstanding fakes out there, and they're getting better. Why put so much money into something that can easily be lost or stolen?

If the answer is, "This is a tradition based on the value of gemstones in chaotic times," then it's worthwhile to think about whether gems are the best way to prepare for catastrophic developments. I'm not a serious "prepper," so I don't know. But we might not just be barking up the wrong tree; we might be in the wrong forest. For all most of us know, we might be better off gifting kallahs with Bitcoin accounts or Glock .45s and plenty of ammo (or a nice Smith and Wesson if she's prone to "Glock bites").

Pretty much the reason I opted for a fake diamond (moissanite). The idea of wearing that much wealth on my fingers made me uncomfortable. Diamonds decrease in value (try reselling your ring on the market and see how much you get). If I want portable wealth, then I should just buy $2000 worth of gold ingots- or, if I'm worried about bribing border guards, then lots of really good fakes.

I still don't get the value of real diamonds, but then again I've always been a slightly unconventional thinker. I also had a large collection of real gold and silver jewelry before I got married, so maybe the idea of getting kallah jewelry wasn't as exciting to me as it is to others for whom the first time they get any 'real' pieces is when they are engaged.

ronbonboo

Mon, Jan 02 2017, 1:12 pm

Me personally. I never owned or wore real jewelry before my engagement ring. To me real jewelry is classier and more refined. I feel prettier and more mature looking. I was married before and didn't get a diamond. Hearing the "well that's original" comments didn't feel good. This time around I have a real diamond that I love and am proud of. My husband worked hard in order to pay for it. My bracelets (I have a few now), and my earrings, as well as necklaces came as yom tov and chanuka presents. To be honest the way I see it is the root of ahava, love is have giving. As an engaged couple especially in our world we tend to date for short periods of time and it's hard to genuinely love a partner we've never lived with, slept with, etc. And so we give. He gives her a bracelet, a ring, a necklace, a watch, earrings, a siddur/Tehillim, a watch, whatever and she gives a watch, cuff links, a kittel, a tallit, a tallit bag, etc. It may be superficial love before the wedding but it's something. But I don't believe it should come from his parents but from him. My candle sticks we bought in Israel together with money from wedding presents.

amother

Silver

Mon, Jan 02 2017, 2:50 pm

ronbonboo wrote:

As an engaged couple especially in our world we tend to date for short periods of time and it's hard to genuinely love a partner we've never lived with, slept with, etc. And so we give. He gives her a bracelet, a ring, a necklace, a watch, earrings, a siddur/Tehillim, a watch, whatever and she gives a watch, cuff links, a kittel, a tallit, a tallit bag, etc. It may be superficial love before the wedding but it's something

Do you really think we should have young couples confuse gifts with true love? Does this seem like the proper foundation for a proper Jewish home???? Go out a few more times, develop feelings for each other and don't use trinkets to prop up a non-existent relationship. This is an incredibly dangerous way to start a marriage.

out-of-towner

Mon, Jan 02 2017, 9:56 pm

amother wrote:

I don't neccesarily disagree with you, but I would like to point out that giving gifts is mentioned in the Torah.

That isn't to say that the "standards" today aren't crazy.

youngishbear

Mon, Jan 02 2017, 10:12 pm

amother wrote:

Gifts are one of the 5 love languages.

And as others have pointed out, it is mentioned in the Torah.

Not that most of us have Avraham Avinu's wealth...

youngishbear

Mon, Jan 02 2017, 10:23 pm

Ladies, "Theirs is not to reason why... theirs is but to do or die..."

Giving tzedaka is not like investing in stock with voting rights. Unless the donor sets up a new organization and decides the rules, we can't have expectations of the money being spent the way we believe it ought to be. We can do our research in advance, and follow halachic guidelines of family first, etc, but our mitzvah is the same regardless of what the recipient does with our funds.

The horror stories here are sad. So many people need such basics, and so much gets wasted.

There is a story told of a chassidish rebbe (probably the Ruzhiner) who lived a lavish lifestyle, and also gave tzedakah, from the pidyonos he collected from chassidim. When he was asked about it, he said that the money from the less-than-upstanding chassidim, the nonkosher money, goes for the nonsense, and the good clean money goes for the true mitzvos...

Let's hope we are worthy that our money is used for the best, that the outcome matches the intention. Once given it's not in our control.

ra_mom

Mon, Jan 02 2017, 11:00 pm

Chayalle wrote:

I remember when my sister got married, someone we know expressed surprise that my brothers, who are married and live in E"Y, were coming to the wedding without all their kids (K'AH there are about 20 grandchildren who are over age 2). I said that's alot of plane tickets to pay for, to which she responded you can get Hachnasas Kallah - they had a wedding in their family overseas and wouldn't dream of not taking everyone, and the "community" helped to pay for all the tickets.....

To be honest, I would not contribute to Hachnasas Kallah that involves plain tickets, when there are so many tzedakahs that would take precedence to that (people who can't pay medical bills, rent, food, etc...)

I have never heard of community funds paying for such tickets. Absolute craziness.

amother

Silver

Mon, Jan 02 2017, 11:48 pm

youngishbear wrote:

Gifts are one of the 5 love languages.

And as others have pointed out, it is mentioned in the Torah.

Not that most of us have Avraham Avinu's wealth...

Gifts are a love language if they are exchanged by two people who already have a relationship. Here, the bride and groom aren't giving personalized gifts to each other. Their parents are buying a list of things.

The gifts mentioned in the Torah were given freely. They weren't part of "what's done." Also, they were needed to impress Lavan. When did he become our role model? Or is the point that a marriage that begins with gifts ends up with bad in-laws?

tichellady

Tue, Jan 03 2017, 12:52 am

out-of-towner wrote:

I don't neccesarily disagree with you, but I would like to point out that giving gifts is mentioned in the Torah.

That isn't to say that the "standards" today aren't crazy.

Plenty of things are mentioned in the Torah within the context of dating and marriage , that doesn't meant they are halakha. Noserings for new brides, yaakov kissing Rachel when he met her, marrying sisters, using a hand maid to bear children or meeting your bride at your wedding, etc. I don't see anyone here encouraging these things because our avos did them.
There is no mitzvah in the Torah or from chazal to buy your daughter in law expensive gifts. Abraham was a very wealthy man, wealthy families typically have different standards than regular folk, especially folk who pay for day school tuition and have many children etc...

33055

Tue, Jan 03 2017, 8:51 am

ra_mom wrote:

I have never heard of community funds paying for such tickets. Absolute craziness.

We, as a society, must educate ourselves on the ramifications of charity and decide on reasonable policies.

Tomchi Shabbos is used to support school tuitions. This is policy for YSV and other schools to get higher tuitions. They forced the parents on Tomchai Shabbos and take the savings. This is beyond the cost to educate the children in question. The money is actually supporting other people's children in the two cases I crunched the numbers.

School tuitions are used to support home owners of large houses at the expense of renters.

Living on government handouts causes people to expect the same from charity. What RA Mom thinks is craziness is business as usual. How do you think the overseas weddings are done by families with no jobs?

Using fraud to qualify for government handouts causes people to use the same "techniques" to get charity. I have been told that I "have to learn to cheat Moses".

Having institutionalized programs in the community perverts the work ethic and discourages education. It encourages fraud. It encourages a black market in labor and services and The large majority of people in the community are on programs. The luxury lifestyle is built on this.

We need to encourage education and change the mindset that you can be frum and educated. We need to teach decent secular studies starring in elementary school. We need to have education be inclusive rather than insular at all levels.

Many would disagree with my suggestions because it takes control away.

amother

Seashell

Tue, Jan 03 2017, 9:00 am

Squishy wrote:

Can you please explain the ysv/tomchei shabbos thing? We paid our share of tuition for ysv for my husbands children (my step children) and we had been granted tuition assistance. I have not heard about tomchei shabbos. What am I missing?