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sarahd

Thu, Jun 16 2011, 5:48 am

imaima wrote:

amother wrote:

So would you say seksy is subjective? Or if 85% of men think a particular look is seksy, should women refrain from wearing it? What if 85% of women their mother's age think so?

Does a person have the objective ability to know if something is too much, or is it preferable to ask someone you respect (not necessarily someone dowdy, but someone you feel looks bakovodik) if an outfit or look crosses the line?

We know we all have a Yetzer Hora. Why would we not suspect our Yetzer Hora of trying to tempt us to look too .... tempting?

sexyness is subjective. You know there are men who only rape women in nude stockings? Maybe they are not normal but that is the way they function! And so, if one day there is a maniac who is only attracted to women in wigs, long skirts and bulletproof stockings, will our standards change???

And what does sexiness have to do with anything, if it is said that it is between you and Hashem, and even if you are alone in your house, you still need to be tzanua and so on? Sexyness is in the eyes of the beholder, and tzniyut is not about the beholder, it is about the inner state of the woman and the way she ants to represent it.

Sorry, tznius is not only between you and Hashem. The beholder obviously has a role to play here, otherwise why would Chazal have forbidden parts of the body that men find alluring?

imaima

Thu, Jun 16 2011, 7:02 am

sarahd wrote:

imaima wrote:

amother wrote:

Sorry, tznius is not only between you and Hashem. The beholder obviously has a role to play here, otherwise why would Chazal have forbidden parts of the body that men find alluring?

Ok. But the clothes featured in the blog do cover those alluring places. Yet everyone says it's not tznius..

amother

Fri, Jun 17 2011, 1:05 am

In my opinion...everyone has the right to their own opinion. DO WHATEVER YOU FEEL IS RIGHT!! The

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problem occurrs when we start force feeding our opinions on others. Some pple will never understand me and I will never understand some people. So yes. When you are so narrowminded that you believe it is your way or the highway and you can not be open to the fact that there are other types and that in todays world we really don't know everything and there are no neviim and we have all been educated differently based on our schools, parents and upbringing....then our test is to love EVERY JEW even if they don't agree or do the same as you. Don't try to change people...look inward and change yourself. Be an example to others.

Since there is a Shulchan Oruch, and there are Rabbonim, we can't quite just "do whatever you feel is right." Actually, that's true since Matan Torah. That has gotten people into trouble ever since Adam and Eve, if you recall. True, there are different standards in different communities, but there's also bottom line halacha.

Well, we never got an answer regarding who this Rav is:

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Also there is absolutely nothing halachically wrong with wearing open toe shoes with no socks when wearing a super long maxi skirt! I even asked my local "Lakewood" rav.

but clearly the majority of Lakewood Rabbonim disagree.

Well, you're right that many people are not interested in changing, and they can go merrily jogging around Lake Carasaljo and past the Yeshiva too, in a tank top & shorts, because that's what they feel is right. And since half of Georgian Court does it, it's accepted, right? And if men who see her and have 'bad dreams' because of her, well, yeah, that's going to go on the scale, whether she likes it or not.

But if you're a Jewish woman you should hopefully have a more dignified image of yourself. As noted above, if you constantly look at fashion from Paris, it's going to tempt you (see new thread I want to stop wanting to look like them - it will be interesting to see where that goes!)

Now, another thing that's disturbing me, is that many people are upset that criticizing someone's fashion choices is judgemental, and, as noted above, not likely to get much in the way of results.

Now, I doubt very highly that anyone ever came over to Sharon & criticized her choice of clothing. And, frankly, if I met her, I would not say anything critical either. In fact, she notes that she is very accepted, by Rebbetzin Kotler & Rebbetzin Kanievsky as well. However, by promoting her blog & her ideas of fashion, she is, like any writer or artist, putting her material in the public domain, which makes it available for everyone to offer their opinions.

And, I do feel justified in pointing out that promoting a certain style is encouraging others to pursue it, and here is where many of us stand up and say, please don't encourage this, it's your nisayon, don't make it someone elses, please.

You want to say that girls on the verge of going OTD need choices? Well, I think that being told that these styles are accepted in Lakewood is encouraging girls to rationalize to themselves that they can do whatever they want.

They have their issues because they have their issues, and frankly, it doesn't matter if a girl decides to go without socks or with a tight t-shirt and tells herself it's because her teachers in school were too strict or her parents fought too much. She needs to know that there are standards in her community, and she is making a choice to flaunt them. She does not need more excuses.

In other words, if you want to have a fashion blog, fine. But please don't call it frum, because a lot of women are embarrassed to have this style associated with frum women.

amother

Fri, Jun 17 2011, 10:55 am

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please don't call it frum, because a lot of women are embarrassed to have this style associated with frum women.

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And a lot of us (including the blog-writer herself) aren't, so please don't speak for all of us.

I didn't say - all frum women. I said "a lot".

Nobody has a right to get up and be a spokesperson for a group without being chosen to represent them. So if many people in a group disagree, I think it's incorrect for someone to claim to represent them, or to promote a lifestyle which is 'accepted' by them.

Certainly, you could call it "MO Fashion" or "Fringe Frum Fashion". Or "Outskirts of the Community" fashion. But it's not mainstream Lakewood, and I feel it's an embarrassment to most of Lakewood. Perhaps we should take a poll of ladies from Lakewood (the ones on here are a distinct sub-group since officially most people in Lakewood don't even have Internet....)

sharonlangert

Sun, Jun 26 2011, 3:19 pm

Hi! It's been a while and I just wanted to give a shout out to the really sweet people that defended me, I'm deeply touched. To the others...I am seriously listening and learning from your comments and I have even started questioning if I am justifying a lower level of tznius. So hopefully I will be able to make some small changes because there is no question that we are all here to grow and learn and improve ourselves. I would like to apologize to anyone in Lakewood that I have offended...I NEVER ever intended my blog to be marketed to Lakewood (I had no idea so many people had the internet!) or representative of Lakewood...it surely is NOT. I know I don't belong here as I've been told quite a few times but sometimes we don't have a choice in where we live so all I ask is be a little more tolerant to others who are not exactly like you. When I am made to feel accepted then that is when I am inspired to work on myself in this area. When I am told I am not wanted or an embarresment, then I am proud to be different and see no reason to want to be like you. There are also very specific halochos on how to treat your fellow Jew and like you say, no, you can not just do or say whatever you want.

I recommend everyone should read a lesson a day from Sefer Chofetz Chaim it will change your life and as Rebbitzin Kanievsky said, people who are going through a hard time, if they learn Sefer Cofetz Chaim every day, Hashem will help with their problems! I did it and it helped me in many issues!

My blog is actually a great creative outlet for a me, a girl that wanted to become a fashionista in NYC, work for vogue, design clothes, etc and instead went on to become a frum Jewish mother, wife, chesed volunteer and balabusta who just happened to land in Lakewood!! If you do not like my blog DO NOT READ IT! For all others enjoy and thanks for you support!

www.fashion-isha.com

Elisheva

Sun, Jun 26 2011, 4:09 pm

Sharon, I heard about how heated this discussion got so I came to check it out! Tznius is a really hard topic because there are no clear boundaries. Even in regard to the actual halacha, it can be really debated (There are some communities that hold you can show a tefach of arm above your elbow, while most places say you have to cover the whole elbow) You just posted something really inspiring and true. People have many different tests and when someone is very talented (as in your case with fashion) it makes the outside world really tempting. It's the same with really intelligent people who have a choice to use their brains for Torah or secular things. Kudos to you for using your talents in a Jewish way and providing inspiration to those who have a desire to look fashionable but don't know how to do it in a non-revealing way.

life'sgreat

Mon, Jun 27 2011, 8:54 am

sharonlangert wrote:

Sharon, I think it takes a lot of courage to write the bolded.