For those of you who prioritize being independent

TranquilityAndPeace

Tue, Jan 03 2012, 11:17 pm

amother wrote:

Saw50st8 -- I think you're the only one who read my last post well. I could completely manage without the shopping sprees, because I have plenty of money in savings that my parents and grandparents have put away for me. That, yes, I do depend on. But what's the difference between savings that my parents have given me and savings that I earned myself? (Yes, obviously there's a difference in terms of the pride I'd feel in it, but not in terms of anything else.) Sure, FS, my parents could lose their money. The market could also crash, taking all of those hard-earned savings with it -- and then who cares that I worked all of those extra hours.

TnP, that's sort of what I've been telling myself. But I've been wondering if nylon has a point. And yet...if someone inherited a fortune, billions of dollars, wouldn't we say that they're ridiculous if they work FT even though they'd really like to work PT and be with their kids (obviously you need that "if" for the situation to make sense), just because they want to make their money independently? And if so, how come that person wouldn't need to do that much hishtadlus, and I would? The point of life isn't to make your own money. The point of life is not connected to money at all, although it may be a priority to be able to have enough money to live at a "normal" level (whatever that means to you). Who cares if you're the one who originally made the money or not? Either way, it's your savings to do with as you please.

I have no idea if the savings will last to pay tuition. I have gone through IF. Right now I have two kids. For all I know, I'll have ten more, in which case no, it will not cover all of their tuitions. But I may just have two or hopefully at least three, in which case, yes, it will presumably cover their tuitions plus the cost of a house with probably some to spare. Do I have to work myself to the bone now in the hopes that I will be lucky enough to have twelve kids? So that if I look back ten years from now, if let's say I end up with much fewer, I'll have plenty of money but have missed my kids' childhood?

Please tell me the answer to that is no.

And I feel guilty about it, in a way, don't get me wrong. Maybe partially because it feels "wrong" to have everything handed to you on a golden platter. But you know what? If you -- FS, nylon, and the other dissenters out there -- suddenly inherited a billion dollars from some long lost relative, would you continue working full time (assuming that you have young kids)? And if not, how is that different?

OP, I like you a lot. You're a real thinker.

I think the concept you're referring to is called 'bread of shame' or "nehama d'kesufa'. It's a natural feeling that we want to earn our keep, and we don't want to be handed things on a silver platter.

It's the reason why God made this world where we earn our reward for the World to Come, rather than just giving us rewards without requiring us to pass all these tests and fulfill all these commandments. It's a feeling ingrained in us naturally.

Unfortunately, lots of people in this day and age are so out of synch with what's real and natural, that they have totally LOST TOUCH with this feeling; these are the people happy to take and take and take from their parents and in-laws who may well be working themselves to the bone.

I think it's good to be aware of your feelings about gifts. And it's wonderful NOT to have to be a mother and work yourself to the bone simultaneously! Appreciate your generous family, and keep thinking - you're going to have a wonderful life with all this self-awareness.

You should have your monthly and annual budget, a five year rough budget (which may include buying a house, starting with tuition), and an even more rough ten-year budget. Keep updating these things annually, and you'll have a good idea about where you are and what you need to do now and in coming years.

Fox

Wed, Jan 04 2012, 1:41 am

OP, the fact that you're thinking about this topic is a sign that you probably don't have an attitude problem when it comes to money.

I see that a number of posters refer to saving for tuition, etc., but that's not really what this post is about. It's one thing if a relative gives you cash; it's quite another if "gifts" come in the form of merchandise -- even merchandise that you're allowed to select yourself.

We all understand that some people are wealthier than others, and we should understand that hishtadlus is not directly connected with results. Unfortunately, just as some people seem not to take their responsibility for hishtadlus seriously enough, others mistakenly believe that they are responsible for their own good fortune. The latter is just as mistaken as the former.

So how to handle periodic influxes of wealth that are not necessarily consistent with your or your chevra's lifestyle?

* Beware the "princess" mentality. This attitude is not necessarily associated with entitlement -- but it is far too common among those whose families have become affluent. Suddenly, avocados are a necessity, and anyone who doesn't appreciate that fact must be a real nebach case. Constantly having "the best" -- whether it's from the fruit stand or Nordstrom's -- can be addictive and can make otherwise lovely people into obnoxious stereotypes.

* Focus on good taste and small, life-enhancing luxuries rather than in-your-face demonstrations of money. Here's an example: I have an acquaintance who comes from an incredibly wealthy family. Her DH is a rebbe, and she is a teacher. They live in a smaller-than-average house; drive well-maintained used cars; their kids are well-dressed but not ostentatiously so. A savvy observer, though, would notice that this woman dresses a bit better than her ostensible resources would permit. Her clothes are classic pieces, and she has one of the few designer handbags I truly covet -- but nothing with someone else's initials on it. Yes, she undoubtedly receives money for clothes or actual gifts from her parents. And I'm sure that she has avocados whenever she wants. But she is careful to make sure that her overall lifestyle is not wildly inconsistent with what others in her position could afford. No mega-mansion; no highly-publicized vacations; no professionally-decorated home.

One of the most disturbing notions I've heard expressed on imamother is, "Well, if you have money left over after giving tzeddekah and paying full tuition -- and not cheating on various government benefits -- you can do whatever you want with it." This is absolutely unfounded. Yes, it is true that wealthier people may maintain a more lavish lifestyle. But wealthy people are not permitted to spend their money in ways that are destructive to their communities.

So, OP, enjoy your family's gifts. Since you are allowed some say-so in how the money is spent, use it in ways that will enhance your life without making others feel bad. Next time you go on a shopping spree, pick up a couple of luxury items for a friend who would appreciate them. And be careful not to allow these luxuries to become the standard in your household. Keep you feet on the ground, and visit Wal-Mart regularly.

Sadly, as I alluded in the beginning, everything being said in this thread constitutes preaching to the choir. The "princessess", the entitlement brigade, and the downright lazy and ungrateful are no doubt avoiding this thread like the plague!

amother

Wed, Jan 04 2012, 7:03 am

Anon because some posters know my DH's family.

I think there's a difference between being dependent and accepting gifts. We could buy a house because my parents and DH's parents put away money for us for a downpayment. But we pay our own mortgage, our own maintenance, our own bills. DH's grandparents (actually, I think his grandmother, but his grandfather humours her!) loves spoiling us...she gives us money for cleaning help so I don't have to do it all myself, for years they bought clothes in the U.S. for the kids and shlepped them every time they came, they enjoy giving us money for Chanukah and birthdays so we can treat ourselves to a date (or whatever). If I had to I could live without the cleaning help (I don't take more than 2 hours a week anyway), though it's sure nice right before Pesach! I can certainly buy my kids clothes. For years my MIL has wanted to give us a dishwasher...we choose it, have it installed, she'll pay for it. I've been putting it off because I never saw the point. But an opportunity has come up to purchase a 2nd hand dishwasher (dairy, from a friend, so I know it's kosher to use) for 1/6th of the cost of new, so I'm going to go ahead and do it. Part of the reason I was putting it off was the price tag; it's a very expensive gift! Finding a good deal makes me much more comfortable about accepting it.

I'm a working mom. Next year I have a savings fund that matures. I plan to reap the rewards of my paycheque (it's an employment perk, this fund)...and I will be taking an unpaid leave. I couldn't do it when my kids were little, and I'm not doing it for the benefit of the one who will be tiny. I'm doing it for the benefit of my oldest who is going to need some help transitioning to real school. I would never accept DH's family's money (his mom or grandparents) to take unpaid leave from work, but I have no problem dipping into my savings to do it.

This, I think, is the difference between what FreidaSima describes (independence, knowing what's a luxury and what's a basic, even when someone else is paying for the luxuries) and being dependent on those gifts to cover your expenses.

freidasima

Wed, Jan 04 2012, 7:44 am

Yep amother above that's just what I was talking about.

First of all there is a bit of exaggeration here. All this talk about "working one's fingers to the bone"...excuse me? Do you really think that a woman on an average full time job is "working her fingers to the bone"? Why? Because then she comes home and has to take care of kids, cooking, shopping, house? Well I see many of my friends who either work part time or who didn't work at all when they had small kids and let me tell you THEY worked their fingers to the bone because the expectations of housholdness for a woman who is not working or only working four hours a day is a lot higher than from those of us who work full time.

So I don't see it as "working one's fingers to the bone". And also this business about putting one's kids to sleep at 7? Why 7? Who decided it's a holy number? My kids never went to sleep at seven unless they were sick. If you aren't talking toddlers, grade school kids can easily go to sleep at 8 or 8:30, especially if they aren't getting up at 5:30 AM (like my kids did sometimes when very young) and if a mother is coming home at 5:30 that gives her three hours a day and don't forget that you have sundays and shabbos in America and I gather the OP is in America not in EY.

Maybe our mentality here is different, but when I talk about "family fortunes" I'm not talking about investing in the market or just making money for the sake of money. But parents here who want to make sure that their kids won't be "working their fingers to the bone" try to put away money for their kids to have a downpayment on an apartment when they get married. Not a whole apartment, these days that's really imposisble unless one is rich, but at least to give them something. And of course the price of half a decent wedding so that the kids can get the wedding checks for themselves.

That's what parents save for. Also for their own old age so that in order to go into an old age care facility which costs a tremendous sum here, they won't have to sell their apartment and can instead save it for their grandchildren. EY is definitely a land based economy in the sense of people buying as a rule and not renting forever.

So maybe that's also in my mind when I say that if you CAN work full time and someone is offering you a job, take it unless you have a really special situation at home that your children must have YOU around all the time for whatever reason, illness, special needs etc. Because that's the money you are putting away - in a provident fund, savings plan, NOT in the market, NOT in real estate, NOT in anything volatile, for their future.

Here we do it all the time and I don't know anyone in EY who saw three hundred thousand dollars turn into thirty three dollars as Fox wrote. Maybe the opposite eventually...

shabri

Wed, Jan 04 2012, 8:09 am

freidasima wrote:

What the difference between giving your kids a downpayment on an apt and putting the money in savings and giving them the cash? Why is 1 creating financial independence and the other financial dependence.

In my opinion, and this is from someone whose Dh used to be in kollel and now is working full time. I have a masters and professional degree and used to work full time and now work part time--mostly b/c I have young kids. I don't think your situation of the savings account is different than an inheritance. Its your money that you received as a gift and your to use as you please.

Actually when DH's grandmother died, she had left us some money. My MIL really wanted us to use it for something, but we chose to save it for something else. it was ours and we were free to do whatever we wanted with it.

In terms of your shopping trips with grandpa's credit card. I think you are viewing it the right way. Its a gift and you are using it for extras. You don't rely on it for essentials and you could go back to work if you need to but why should you as long as you need to?

freidasima

Wed, Jan 04 2012, 10:52 am

Shabri the difference is that a downpayment is a one time very specific thing and money gotten from an inheritence can easily be something one leans on in every day life. And that can lead to lack of independence. No one around here at least says "well my parents gave me the downpayment for my apartment so I can go out and buy a bunch of luxuries I wouldn't buy naturally if I had to pay my own downpayment".

Because in a society in which parents who can, help their children with a downpayment, as soon as those parents are free from the downpayment they are already beginning to save for their OWN children's downpayment. It's an ongiong responsibility. That's very different than getting used to living on someone elses generosity. It also depends how long something goes on for. When a parent or grandparent tries to help newlyweds who are struggling until they can make it on their own, it's one thing. When it's an ongoing thing for five to ten years....well then it becomes a crutch and that's not something that people should get used to.

How come rich people that I know of insisted that their children go work summers to know the value of money, make their kids start in the business from the bottom up, and didn't give them hundred dollars a week allowance but no more than the average that kids their age got? To teach the kids responsibility. That's the name of the game. At least in my book.

Fox

Wed, Jan 04 2012, 12:10 pm

Raisin wrote:

I don't think there is anything wrong with taking money from parents. Just don't pretend you are managing all on your own when your parents pay for a lot of stuff. (or saved money for you to use now) You are not. But thats fine. Bh for generous parents. And yes, have a financial plan.

I am impressed when people make it on their own with almost zero help from parents. I'm also impressed with people who do all sorts of things, doesn't mean I have to feel bad that I am not doing the same thing.

Financial well-being is one of the most constant conundrums with which we live. On one hand, we must do everything possible to provide for ourselves and our families and avoid being a burden to others or to society at large. But having done so, we cannot take credit for whatever security or affluence we achieve.

People who brag about their financial independence are no more admirable than those who constantly scout for ways to avoid hishtadlus -- they are just making a mistake on the opposite end. When I hear someone go on and on about "not being supported" or "not getting financial help," I know that I am dealing with either a liar or someone who is so profoundly ungrateful as to be pathological.

Sure, maybe you didn't receive a check each month or even generous gifts at propitious times. Instead, perhaps you had a supervisor who put in a good word for you at a critical juncture of your career. Perhaps you received free health insurance for a few years, thus giving you a little more disposable income when it mattered. Perhaps you "just happened" to find an apartment that was a real deal. Perhaps you had a brother-in-law who was able to do some otherwise costly repairs for you. Perhaps your parents made sure that you learned a skill or got work experience that paid off later.

The bottom line is that all of us are "supported" by Hashem. None of us makes it on our own. And it's not nice to flaunt that support, whether it comes in the form of a monthly check or a handy BIL. But constantly crowing that you "did it yourself" sounds more like a self-obsessed toddler than an eved Hashem.

freidasima

Wed, Jan 04 2012, 1:18 pm

Because a bris is a one time event. Groceries are ongoing. My grandsons had one bris each. But my daughter, their mother, goes shopping three times a week at the market. What we gave for the bris was to enable them to have our guests as well as their own, who were a goodly number of the people there, so it was more of a large family event (brisses here can be up to 70 people or more sometimes, in a big hall).

But I would not ever take my daughter grocery shopping on a regular basis so that she would use my card and buy her family things. No way. If you can't afford to pay for your own groceries decently you can't afford to set up household which means you can't afford to get married. In my neck of the woods if you can't afford to get married except under very very special circumstances, you wait until you have enough money. People around here aren't in kollel, and if you are getting married while in school you better be working full time as well like many Israelis do. My kids also don't marry at 24 (and remember that means after three years army or five years army and hesder) but much later.

Fox, I beg to disagree. When someone says "I did it on my own" he isn't negating Hashem. Hashem is always there. But yes, there are people who no one gave a "helping hand to" and who make it on their own. People who don't have "supervisors" or brothers in law or whatever but who really came from nothing and broke their backs to do so. A whole generation of Holocaust survivors like my father and his friends who came out with literally nothing, worked 16 hours a day at menial jobs and put away every cent, lived in hovels for the first years and managed to work their way up to a better position and give their children a Jewish education. And I know people who no one gave them breaks. Could be that no one stuck their foot out to trip them either but saying "I did it on my own" doesn't mean "no one tried to hurt me".

Why is it so important for you to diss, both here and on other posts that you have written, that people who hold independence dear and publically when asked support the idea of financial independence? Is it the word "brag" that you don't like? No one likes braggarts of any kind. But most people I don't don't "brag". If asked, as on this thread, they state that they do prioritize being independent and do their utmost to make it on their own. Everyone knows what that means, but you seem to have some kind of almost religious axe to grind her.

Do you feel that a person can't take credit for anything? Why can a person take credit for having worked hard to reach a certain religious level? After all, he didn't reach it on his own, Hashem made him reach it according to your thinking. A student who studied very hard for an exam and got 100 also can't take credit for having "made it" according to that thinking, because it was Hashem who gave him the brain and decided that he would "give" that student that 100.

And so on.

The minute a person can't take credit, they can't take blame either, they go hand in hand. Therefore if a person makes really bad decisions and messes up his family's finances and they go to the poorhouse...well then according to you it isn't that person's fault because it's all from Hashem, right?

I for one don't buy that. People can do really awful things and they deserve blame by those around them paying the price. And people can do really well and they deserve to give themselves credit for it and get credit from others who can maybe learn from them how to succeed.

Fox

Thu, Jan 05 2012, 2:40 am

freidasima wrote:

Fox, I beg to disagree. When someone says "I did it on my own" he isn't negating Hashem. Hashem is always there. But yes, there are people who no one gave a "helping hand to" and who make it on their own. People who don't have "supervisors" or brothers in law or whatever but who really came from nothing and broke their backs to do so. A whole generation of Holocaust survivors like my father and his friends who came out with literally nothing, worked 16 hours a day at menial jobs and put away every cent, lived in hovels for the first years and managed to work their way up to a better position and give their children a Jewish education. And I know people who no one gave them breaks. Could be that no one stuck their foot out to trip them either but saying "I did it on my own" doesn't mean "no one tried to hurt me".

Sorry, but we'll have to agree to disagree on this topic. I have never, ever met a single individual who wasn't "helped" in some way -- however minor. Many times we don't even realize that we're receiving help of some kind.

I am in no way denying or denigrating the experiences of your family members or friends. But, frankly, you seem to assume that the rest of us were germinated in petri dishes. There are plenty of us who have similar stories in our families. However, the narrative we were told and that we tell our children is not focused on "I did it myself," but on "I worked hard and received lots of help."

Let me be blunt since I think you can take it: I am loathe to resort to bringing my family's experiences into the conversation, but my parents and other extended family members would be shocked and disgusted with me if I described their experiences in terms similar to those you used. Of course, they worked incredibly hard under difficult and sometimes dangerous conditions. Yes, they faced all kinds of obstacles and deprivation. But when these narratives were passed along, there were always, always, addenda about a shopkeeper who extended credit; a boss who didn't dock my grandfather for a day's pay; a mine foreman who recommended someone for an easier job.

freidasima wrote:

Why is it so important for you to diss, both here and on other posts that you have written, that people who hold independence dear and publically when asked support the idea of financial independence? Is it the word "brag" that you don't like? No one likes braggarts of any kind. But most people I don't don't "brag". If asked, as on this thread, they state that they do prioritize being independent and do their utmost to make it on their own. Everyone knows what that means, but you seem to have some kind of almost religious axe to grind her.

This reminds me a bit of a discussion I had not long ago here on imamother: I kept quoting what I'd actually written, and the other poster kept referencing things I'd never said. When I pointed that out, she claimed I was denying having written it. Well, yeah! Because I didn't!

I disagree that "everyone knows what that means." On the contrary, there are many posters who apparently believe that simply doing appropriate hishtadlus will guarantee certain results. More disturbing, they easily slip into the assumption that anyone who is not financially successful must therefore not be doing adequate histadlus.

As for bragging, you and I have radically different definitions.

freidasima wrote:

Do you feel that a person can't take credit for anything? Why can a person take credit for having worked hard to reach a certain religious level? After all, he didn't reach it on his own, Hashem made him reach it according to your thinking. A student who studied very hard for an exam and got 100 also can't take credit for having "made it" according to that thinking, because it was Hashem who gave him the brain and decided that he would "give" that student that 100.

You said at the beginning of your post that taking credit doesn't mean negating Hashem's help. But I find it entirely appropriate that a successful student would reflect on the fact that Hashem gave him cognitive abilities that others might not have. I read the Igeres HaRamban every night, and I am always stopped short when I reach the part about "G-d may remove the speech of the most competent and take away the wisdom of the aged." It's a constant reminder that not only could my livelihood be taken away in an instant, but all the skills with which I earn a living could be gone in an instant, too.

Now, let me take preventive action against being misquoted: That doesn't mean that one can't feel good about having put forth hishtadlus. But there's a significant difference between saying, "I did this by myself," and saying "I worked hard, and with Hashem's help, I was successful."

The first is bragging; the second, not.

freidasima wrote:

The minute a person can't take credit, they can't take blame either, they go hand in hand. Therefore if a person makes really bad decisions and messes up his family's finances and they go to the poorhouse...well then according to you it isn't that person's fault because it's all from Hashem, right?

I for one don't buy that. People can do really awful things and they deserve blame by those around them paying the price. And people can do really well and they deserve to give themselves credit for it and get credit from others who can maybe learn from them how to succeed.

Ah, to live in a world where everything is black and white. Every result has a discernible cause, and every bad thing that happens has a guilty party to blame.

Do you really live in a world in which people mess up their finances out of sheer evil? Really? No one makes financial decisions that seem reasonable but don't work out for various reasons? No one starts a business that fails despite his/her best efforts? No one has limitations that make financial security more difficult to achieve?

Perhaps I am unusually blessed, but the majority of people I know who suffer from financial hardships are not indolent, foolish people. Yes, there are many who might make different decisions than I would concerning their hishtadlus or lifestyle, but there are far, far more people who are financially successful who make decisions that I find equally appalling. So it's hard for me to get too worked up about it.

Perhaps this is a result of living in the Midwest, where there is a fairly strong work ethic in general and a tendency toward self-deprecation. Okay -- that's my reality. As you have said, living in EY necessarily colors your experiences and attitudes, so it's quite likely that Midwestern reticence colors my world view.

When I hear someone bang the "I did it myself" drum, I hear an angry, embittered person who believes that too many people have it too easy in the world. I hear someone who is constantly afraid of being taken advantage of. I hear someone who is so insecure that he/she cannot bear to spread a little credit around. I hear someone who is so negative that he/she cannot recognize or appreciate help that is extended. Perhaps that is inaccurate and unfair. But that is the impression that such people make on me.

freidasima

Thu, Jan 05 2012, 4:49 am

Fox, maybe you are unusually blessed but hey, where I come from there are a heck of a lot of people who screwed up financially because of their own idiocy, pigheadedness, lack of ability to learn and take advice from people who knew more than them. And there are others, innocent people, suffering because of what others did to them and to their finances where they had absolutely no choice (think, women whose husbands are sole providers, patriarchial and make all financial decisions on their own and think they know better than the whole world to boot so they refuse to take advice, screw up and leave their families in poverty.)

According to you it's all from Hashem so a wife in that situation can't blame her husband.
I for one don't buy that.

It's a cop out to say "everything is from Hashem" and leave it as that, it's a very unjewish trait. That's why there is punishment and reward in judaism. Because we are responsible for our deeds and we have full right to take credit when we worked hard and succeeded in something. What is your source for negating reward and punishment? After all if it's all from Hashem...well then, you know, no one should be blamed for anything, including murder because...after all..if Hashem didn't want it to happen it wouldn't happen.

You know, for many of us, G-d is a given. That fact that we are alive because of him is a given. It's like breathing. We don't spend all day long saying "inhale, exhale". It is part of us. Always there. Always aware of it. Always grateful for his kindness. We say it when we daven. We say it when we make brochos. But we don't spend every sentence saying it, and we also don't remove human beings and their efforts to the good or the bad from the equation.

It doesnt mean that we go and declare it all day long in every sentence, which seems to be what you want from people. I don't know people who say "I went to the supermarket to buy peppers and G-d was good to me, there were peppers on the stand" or "I studied all night long for the test, made charts and memorized and Hashem granted me his mercy and put the right questions on the test" kind of stuff...Maybe that's a midwest kind of thing? I don't know.... seriously. I don't know people who talk like that.

also the exaggerations. With you is seems it can's just be "a person who is proud of having worked hard and succeeding" but rather he "beats his drum" with you and you see him as insecure..why Fox, why the exaggerations? why can't it just be a person who says when asked how he succeeded: "lots of hard work".? I don't see any "insecurity" of not "spreading around the credit". This isn't a balance sheet you know....To you everyone beats a drum, don't they...maybe in the midwest, not around here. So strange to me, the way you are taking a natural positive trait and making it into something oh so ugly...why? Did you know people who had and lost and don't want to take blame, saying "it's all in G-d's hands"? Otherwise I don't get the vehemence against someone who take pride in their achievement, whatever it is. Particularly if it spurrs them on to doing even more success that can enable them to do good things not only for themselves but for the world and others as well.

Here's another point. If a person doesn't take pride in their achievements why bother working hard? It's all from G-d anyhow the way you make it sound. If he wants, we can sit on our tush and the money will fall like mana from heaven and if he wants, we can break our backsides and fail at every turn.

So why bother? Just sit and pray right? That's the feeling I'm getting from your post. You seem to have this pollyanaish attitude that really doesn't sound too Jewish to me somehow..at least not the Judaism that I know.

Also consider yourself lucky if you don't know anyone who really got no breaks. They exist. And it pains me for them that you negate their existence because they really do deserve credit for everything they succeeded in doing because of the adverse conditions and lack of help they got. Maybe in the midwest it's heaven and everyone is so hunky dory nice to each other all the time. In the rest of the world it is often dog eat dog. All of the time. In lots of places.

Fox

Thu, Jan 05 2012, 12:29 pm

Look, I'm not against people striving for financial independence. I personally work almost 60 hours per week, and I've never had a "maternity leave" longer than two weeks. I try to live modestly and responsibly, and I try to encourage others to do so.

What makes me uncomfortable is when people become judgmental just because others do things differently.

For example, you mentioned that you help your kids with simchas and big, one-time expenditures. You seem to think that's okay. Well, I know plenty of people who think just the opposite: they would consider it incredibly inappropriate to pay for a bris, but might kick in grocery money from time to time. Or they might pay for neither, but might pay for tuition for a grown child to get an advanced degree. Or maybe they do none of the above, but buy clothes for everyone.

My point is that nobody died and put you, me, or any other poster in charge of what's correct and normal when it comes to these things. A lot of it varies from culture to culture; from chevra to chevra; and even within specific families.

And that's why I get feisty when I feel people seem to insist that "their way" is appropriate, but other people's approaches are inherently problematic. Of course, you think your way is best; that's why you do it. But I don't buy into your thesis that having a grandparent pay for a bris or a car is perfectly okay, but that providing money for avocados is the first step to a life of financial irresponsibility.

freidasima wrote:

It's a cop out to say "everything is from Hashem" and leave it as that, it's a very unjewish trait. That's why there is punishment and reward in judaism. Because we are responsible for our deeds and we have full right to take credit when we worked hard and succeeded in something. What is your source for negating reward and punishment? After all if it's all from Hashem...well then, you know, no one should be blamed for anything, including murder because...after all..if Hashem didn't want it to happen it wouldn't happen.

I generally do not bring sources; I am nowhere near learned enough to thoughtfully engage in such discussions. However, the issue of hishtadlus versus bitachon was just addressed in the parsha: why is Yosef HaTzaddik punished for asking the butler to remember him to Paro? Not because he asked; that was proper hishtadlus. Rather, because he momentarily forgot that Hashem is really in charge.

Rav Eliyahu Dressler, z"tl, spoke extensively about this conundrum:

Quote:

"The balance between legitimate and necessary Hishtadlus — your quest for resources that are required so as to fulfull your spiritual aspirations and their needs; and illegitimate and unnecessary Hishtadlus — your quest for resources that you desire so as to fulfill your materialistic aspirations and their prerequisites — is very fine. Much prayer, and much divine aid, are required to attain that balance."

freidasima wrote:

You know, for many of us, G-d is a given. That fact that we are alive because of him is a given. It's like breathing. We don't spend all day long saying "inhale, exhale". It is part of us. Always there. Always aware of it. Always grateful for his kindness. We say it when we daven. We say it when we make brochos. But we don't spend every sentence saying it, and we also don't remove human beings and their efforts to the good or the bad from the equation.

Again, you're painting things in black-and-white. I never said that we should remove the human element from the conundrum. I never advocated abdicating one's responsibility for hishtadlus. Perhaps you believe that people in general are aware of G-d's minute-to-minute presence. Perhaps the people you come into contact with are more spiritually attuned than I am, but I find it plenty challenging, and I am much less convinced than you that the awareness of G-d's presence in day-to-day life is a given.

freidasima wrote:

Here's another point. If a person doesn't take pride in their achievements why bother working hard? It's all from G-d anyhow the way you make it sound. If he wants, we can sit on our tush and the money will fall like mana from heaven and if he wants, we can break our backsides and fail at every turn.

So why bother? Just sit and pray right? That's the feeling I'm getting from your post. You seem to have this pollyanaish attitude that really doesn't sound too Jewish to me somehow..at least not the Judaism that I know.

Blessing only comes with hishtadlus. But without the presence of prophecy, none of us can say what constitutes "adequate" hishtadlus. I know plenty of people who seem -- to my eyes, anyway -- to have been rewarded far, far in excess of their hishtadlus. Apparently, though, Hashem overlooked my opinion of their hishtadlus and blessed them with financial success or other material benefits based on His own chesbon.

freidasima wrote:

Maybe in the midwest it's heaven and everyone is so hunky dory nice to each other all the time. In the rest of the world it is often dog eat dog. All of the time. In lots of places.

Why so sarcastic about my background? Why is it okay for you to repeatedly bring up your own experiences living in EY and as the child of survivors, but mentioning anything about how my background might affect my outlook results in nastiness?

I haven't lived outside the Midwest for any significant period of time, so I can't speak to whether other places are, as you say, "dog eat dog." If that's the case, then I am truly sorry for all the people who are forced to live under such circumstances. That's a degrading and debilitating way to live, and perhaps you are right -- I am unusually blessed to have been spared such a way of life.

freidasima

Thu, Jan 05 2012, 12:57 pm

The only reason I mention the midwest is that you mentioned it yourself:

"Perhaps I am unusually blessed, but the majority of people I know who suffer from financial hardships are not indolent, foolish people. Yes, there are many who might make different decisions than I would concerning their hishtadlus or lifestyle, but there are far, far more people who are financially successful who make decisions that I find equally appalling. So it's hard for me to get too worked up about it.

Perhaps this is a result of living in the Midwest, where there is a fairly strong work ethic in general and a tendency toward self-deprecation. Okay -- that's my reality".

Most people I know may have a work ethic but they sure as heck aren't self deprecating in any way!

As for what is "ok" and "not ok". Nothing that you mention has anything to do with the OPs question. She mentioned a situation where she regularly (not "once in a while") shops on a family member's credit card and counts on money that she received from others to pay her daily expenses (the "savings" that she got from her family). And then she asks, as per the title of the thread "for those of you who prioritize being independent", if we think it's ok.

No, I don't think it's ok for reasons I mentioned. I also think that living in the USA, with the average american salaries for decent jobs, and with at least one and a half people working in the family, it is possible for a person to be able to work and pay their own groceries and hopefully their own tuition to whatever extent, even taking into account the crazy yeshiva tuitions of these days.

OTOH, the economy in EY is such that almost no one is able to buy an apartment in the past few years without parental help. It's just the way the economy was built unfortunately. A bris is one thing, as I wrote, giving for the bris enables ME to invite all MY friends to whom seeing dd's son be brissed and celebrate the family simcha with them is important to me, much more than to dd. So I am happy to pay for it.

Getting back to apartments, that's not america where one can easily rent for one's whole life in many if not most places. It's not like that here, the economy is different, built differently etc. But as for daily life? The OP is asking if she should feel bad that she isn't "making it daily without help". and I, along with others, answered her that yes, it's not good and not healthy.

If the OP asks a question and we give an answer based on our life experience and values is that "judgemental"? Well then saying to someone asking if they should make brochos "you should! It's a very important thing and we value being a good Jew to be important and to be a good Jew one should be making brochos daily" is also judgemental!

Fox do you REALLY know people who think it is inappropriate to help pay for a grandson's bris but think it is ok to give their kids a free shop on their credit card every week or so? Really? They are willing to pay out...let's see, an average nice shop for a family with a few kids is around $1000 a month at least...meaning $12,000 a year and that's WITHOUT luxuries, but they think it is wrong to give their kids $1000 for a one time bris???? In a lifetime? Wow...

No one is "in charge" Fox. We are all giving opinions. You as well. Everything you say about my stating my opinion can be turned and focused against you giving your opinion. You aren't "in charge" either. But you think your way is best and I think may way is best and another poster thinks her way is best. To me that's legitimate. I'm not forcing my way on anyone. But when asked, as the OP did, what people's opinions are, I have a right to give mine, like every other poster, and not be criticized about it either.

Fox

Thu, Jan 05 2012, 1:42 pm

This is just too frustrating. I've read through my responses, and I honestly don't think that mentioning that perhaps things are done differently where I live called for your sarcasm.

freidasima wrote:

Fox do you REALLY know people who think it is inappropriate to help pay for a grandson's bris but think it is ok to give their kids a free shop on their credit card every week or so? Really? They are willing to pay out...let's see, an average nice shop for a family with a few kids is around $1000 a month at least...meaning $12,000 a year and that's WITHOUT luxuries, but they think it is wrong to give their kids $1000 for a one time bris???? In a lifetime? Wow...

This is just plain dishonest and wrong of you. I said, "kick in grocery money from time to time," and you've changed it to "give their kids a free shop on their credit card every week or so." Please don't make up things I never said!

And, yes, I know plenty of people who would kick in grocery money from time to time, but feel that kids should pay for their own simchas. You are correct that I do not know people who "give their kids a free shop on their credit card every week or so." But since I never claimed to, I'm not sure why you made that up. I also don't know anyone who keeps a cow in her garage to save money on milk.

freidasima wrote:

No one is "in charge" Fox. We are all giving opinions. You as well. Everything you say about my stating my opinion can be turned and focused against you giving your opinion. You aren't "in charge" either. But you think your way is best and I think may way is best and another poster thinks her way is best. To me that's legitimate. I'm not forcing my way on anyone. But when asked, as the OP did, what people's opinions are, I have a right to give mine, like every other poster, and not be criticized about it either.

Now, that's a very interesting interpretation, because if you read my responses, I didn't discuss "my way." In fact, someone reading my responses would have absolutely no idea what kind of help I believe parents should give grown children. I responded to the OP with two potential pitfalls of accepting such gifts and didn't re-enter the fray until you told the OP to go to work full time and buy her relative a gift (though I'm unclear how you ascertained that she doesn't already give gifts or show her hakores hatov in some meaningful way).

I agree that it's quite legitimate to have different opinions. But I don't agree that it's legitimate to advocate for those opinions by using sarcasm and misrepresenting what others have said. Enough. I feel like you brought a water cannon to a water pistol contest: claiming that I "diss" the concept of financial independence and that I seem to have a "religious axe to grind" was unnecessarily aggressive and served no purpose in clarifying or arguing your opinion based on evidence. Perhaps it's just time for a break.