"YOU RUIN THINGS FOR ME"

Fox

Tue, Apr 09 2013, 11:42 am

pelle wrote:

while I agree the lady was completely out of line. I would definitely have a talk with my children about keeping the nice things in life that they are blessed with underwraps/tzinus. meaning, they dont have to go on and on about the great time they had at xyz, if they know their friend CAN'T afford things like that. I am NOT implying your children do this! I would just have a conversation about it with them.

I completely agree! While the woman was very inappropriate, I would look at the incident as a warning sign. If she is allowing herself to scream at you about this issue, it's a pretty fair bet that at least a few people are thinking the same thing.

Don't confuse her nisoyon with yours. Her nisoyon is to help her children be happy with what they have. Your nisoyon is to avoid living ostentatiously compared to others in your community. The fact that she may be failing at her nisoyon doesn't mean you are allowed to give up, too! Nor is the fact that you don't spend excessively relevant. Ostentation is not excused when it comes as a result of clever shopping.

However, let me throw in another perspective as the mother of teenagers: as children get older, the social "punishments" for ostentation become much, much more severe. I am thinking of a particular girl in my DDs' class who comes from an affluent but not "rich" family. Her mother, too, is an excellent shopper, and their small family size enables them to maintain a lifestyle that might be difficult for others. Unfortunately, this girl discusses all the minutiae of their purchases and experiences in an unintentionally judgmental manner. As a result, she has almost no true friends -- even among the wealthier girls, who also feel uncomfortable with her cluelessness. Her "friends" essentially regard her as a chesed case -- they don't like or approve of her, but they're friendly to her out of pity.

OP, I don't think any of us can tell you whether you're crossing the line regarding how you dress or entertain your children. "Designer clothes" can mean anything from licensed designer names gracing bathrobes at Marshall's or haute couture. A fabulous Chol HaMoed outing could mean a trip to a zoo with an admission fee or a helicopter tour of Manhattan.

This woman's rant may be a signal to tone it down a little, or she may just be stressed or downright crazy. However, I'd definitely be proactive in training my children how to communicate with others on the topic of whatever good fortune they receive.

ElTam

Tue, Apr 09 2013, 7:12 pm

I would offer her some of your savings strategies.

For the amother who wrote:

Quote:

We are not hermits, we live in a society. There is no way to buy anything designer for next to nothing, as I am also a great shopper and love nice things, and they are never that cheap or free, no way to compare it to buying in a low end store on sale, where a $10. item goes for $2. on sale.

Sorry, but you are just wrong. If you buy from thrift stores, consignment shops and yard sales, you can get like new items for pennies. My daughter's Shabbos coat for this last season is DKNY. It was $2 at a thrift shop. I go yard sale shopping in upscale neighborhoods where people have one or two kids. The clothes don't look worn. I bought her a Lilly Pulitzer dress with the tags still on on it for $1. Other name brand items for $1 and $2 are common.

amother

Tue, Apr 09 2013, 11:41 pm

ElTam wrote:

I would offer her some of your savings strategies.

For the amother who wrote:

Quote:

Depends where you live. Where I live there are absolutely no designer items in thrift stores, period.
And you need money to go away twice a year, you can't get that at any thrift store.

marina

Wed, Apr 10 2013, 12:05 am

Wow. Just wow. Check the double standard at the door.

If the OP wore a short mini skirt and a man told her how it makes him suffer, you'd all be yelling at OP to change her evil, provoking ways.

But this woman is jealous and is suffering and she tells you and you are the wronged one. Boo-hoo.

And yeah, about the issue at hand. You could be a little modest. You know? Modest? Humble? Not showing off? Remember that part of Judaism? Don't wear designer clothing if it will make people uncomfortable and feel bad, no matter if you paid 6 dollars or 600. Tell your kid to stop talking about his vacations.

Call the woman and apologize. Offer to help in any way you can.

I cannot fathom why you'd allow yourself clothing choices that you now know might hurt people. I completely disagree with the whole tznius clothing bit, but I've started trying to dress to make people comfortable in shul, at least.

Imogen

Wed, Apr 10 2013, 3:25 am

This incident is a good wake up call to the power of envy, the op did not deserve the treatement meted out to her, her vocal critic is a victim indeed.

Of course kids compare outings and possessions, it is up to us as parents to make them refined and above such things, not easy but it can be done. Inverted snobbery can be a wonderfully useful tool!! So can teaching kids young to value emotion and experience over possession and materialism.

Reading the many threads here I note how grown women and mothers too can be negatively affected by envy and materialism, it is very natural. Need to teach young kids the importance of appreciating what really matters, if start young helps to counteract the materialism which is all around us. By bat and bar mitzvah ages it is up to us as parents to teach our kids what really matters.

amother

Wed, Apr 10 2013, 5:55 pm

OP here.

So after reading your responses, let me clarify things: A) How many of YOU have cleaning ladies? I dont. If I want to wear designer clothes, whose business is it if someone else feels comfortable. Mind your business. Sorry if you feel bad. YOU all are making me feel worse.

And as a side point, I LIVE in a very wealthy community. (Picture MANSIONS). I live in a condo, no cleaning lady, we dont drive a luxury car. And if a boy in my sons class asks him "hey, whatd you do for yom tov?" why should my son LIE????

So really ladies, its a lesson to you ALL: Mind your own business. We've been through the financial ups and downs. It hasnt been easy. We go without a lot to do a lot. Having a car where we live is essential. We dont eat out a lot (maybe once a month). How many of YOU are getting pizza every Thurs? To the person who said my designer clothes make you uncomfortable...That making you uncomfortable makes you more upsetting then the lady who yelled at me

Maya

Wed, Apr 10 2013, 6:01 pm

marina wrote:

I cannot fathom why you'd allow yourself clothing choices that you now know might hurt people. I completely disagree with the whole tznius clothing bit, but I've started trying to dress to make people comfortable in shul, at least.

I very strongly disagree with the bolded.

If you want to talk about doing things for others, I know how ridiculous you think is the notion that women should dress tznius because they may be responsible for getting men to look at them. How is this any different? So now I can't buy whatever I want because the woman might be jealous? Just like the men-tznius analogy, that woman should work on her own middos, not restrict my clothing choices.

Cookies n Cream

Wed, Apr 10 2013, 6:14 pm

amother wrote:

I actually did mind my own business this time, I didn't respond.
I had an response to your post, but I didn't reply, because I can see where that person is coming from and I didn't want to make you feel bad.

But in the future if you want people to mind their own business(a.k.a.only respond with what you want to hear), then you shouldn't post your business, asking for advice.

amother

Wed, Apr 10 2013, 7:05 pm

amother wrote:

WOW. Just WOW. I'm kinda beginning to see that woman's point.

In reality, of course, the woman was wrong. No one has the right to yell at you, and no one has the right to tell you how to spend your own money.

But her being wrong doesn't make you right.

Let's take this away from your situation. My shul was trying to raise money for a cause. Someone stood up and said, "I'm not rich, but I'm able to donate $50,000, so I'm sure if you try, all of you can donate too." Wait a minute. Someone who isn't wealthy has $50,000 laying around that he can donate on request? Let me look that up in my dictionary. Wealthy ... wealthy. Oh there. "Anyone who has $50,000 to dispose of without saving up and without much forethought is wealthy." Yeah, I thought so.

Notwithstanding your protestations to the contrary, you are obviously quite wealthy, and have no issues with exhibiting that wealth. Unless you're packing up and driving across town to spend Pesach and Succot with the folks, those trips cost a pretty penny. By registering early and going to a less fancy place, you can probably get Pesach down to $1100 or so per adult, plus kids, plus transportation. As I said, nothing wrong with that. But the whole "and gosh, that's the kind of money I spend during the year on guests, not expensive at all" makes you sound rather clueless to the less wealthy and, yes, like you do engage in ostentatious showings of wealth. And its that part that probably got to the woman.

And for those who wonder, I am anonymous because the shul story really angered me, to the point that I have whined about it to every person I know, and probably a few I don't know.

amother

Wed, Apr 10 2013, 7:19 pm

How do you know the OP doesn't shop frugally for food? Maybe she shops on sale. She can be getting shampoo, toothpaste etc. nearly for free from CVS or Rite Aid when they run sales and give back money. All these savings does add up over the year. I hate when it comes to Yom Tov and I'm giving tzedakah to a family that does all their shopping in one store for convenience. You are spending a lot extra a year if you buy your detergent from the same place you are buying your meat and chicken.

Cookies n Cream

Wed, Apr 10 2013, 7:38 pm

amother wrote:

What does one have to do with the other?
Why does shopping frugally for food cancel out being ostentatious and discussing your family vacations?

b from nj

Wed, Apr 10 2013, 7:48 pm

OP, I'm a bit confused as to why that woman came yelling to YOU b/c based on what you are saying it sounds like you are NOT among the most affluent ppl. in town as compared with those who live in the mansions but then again, didn't you initially say in your initial post that you are on the same page as everyone else?!! Quite frankly, I'm confused Exclamation

In any case, I guess this woman initially thought that you & she were in a similar financial boat & now she realizes that you in fact seem to be in better shape financially than she is which is FINE! You don't have to feel badly about what you have but perhaps, as others have mentioned, it may pay to tone things down a bit & to tell the kids not to brag to their friends.

Barbara

Wed, Apr 10 2013, 7:49 pm

amother wrote:

I'm anxious to meet the family that spends $10,000 or more on shampoo and toothpaste in a year.

Nevertheless, you raise an interesting anomaly of poverty:

(1) Poor people have fewer options. They are less likely to have a car, and less likely to have a lot of shopping options near home. Therefore, they are stuck with more expensive stores in their neighborhoods.

(2) Poor people often have less time. Working people certainly do. A person who doesn't work may have time to visit 3 supermarkets, a big box store, and a discount drugstore every week. A person who leaves for work at 8 and gets home at 6, 5 days a week, doesn't have that luxury. (Much less a frum worker, who doesn't have the chance to shop on Shabbat.)

Add to that the fact that poor people usually have smaller homes. Ever watch the extreme couponers, who seem to have endless storage space? Well, a person on the edge might not even have room to store an extra couple of bottles of detergent.

ValleyMom

Wed, Apr 10 2013, 9:12 pm

Am I naive and missing something?
This is AMERICA ladies.
We are all FREE to spend our money on whatever we want, provided it it legal.

If the OP enjoys shopping endlessly for the designer clothing on clearance--ENJOY!!!

I am pretty sure she is not wearing her clothing inside out so we know exactly what labels she is wearing, and what size she is.
WHO CARES.

Hey OP... That woman who yelled at you was having a BAD day.

She needs to parent her kids-NOT you.
I'll bet you twenty bucks she has no recollection of yelling at you--trust me she hasn't lost a moments sleep.

My children were taught at an early age that we always have what we need.

We can't always get what we want.

<feel>

amother

Wed, Apr 10 2013, 9:24 pm

ValleyMom wrote:

No one is suggesting that it is ILLEGAL to buy whatever you want just that it is bad midos to do so and rub it in others faces. You don't need to wear your clothing inside out for someone to know it's designer, the conspicuous logo will clue them in right quick.

Having said that - buying a shirt with a little pony on it for your daughter or going away for yom tov do not rise to the level of "showing off" IMO. We cannot (and should not) all live like paupers because there are poor people amongst us. This woman needs a refresher course on "Lo Sachmod" but OP must be sure that she is not being over "Lifnei iver". It's a fine line to tread.

and OP - we don't all have cleaning ladies and eat out once a week or once a month. Are you new to this site or have you missed the constant stream or budgeting threads on here?