Spinoff of unnecessary expenses - kallah jewelry

TwinsMommy

Wed, Dec 28 2016, 11:37 pm

*Shrug* --- my hubby and I are married 18 wonderful years so far. We paid $17,000 total for our wedding (our money--- most people get most of their wedding covered by parents--- my parents didn't even come to the wedding), catering, dress, suit, flowers, photos, jewelry included (just $600 on my ring setting with a hand me down stone). Never had a diamond bracelet or fancy candlesticks or a watch that cost more than 20 bucks. But I've got a wonderful marriage.

In lean years, we even consider selling the ring. I'm sure we'll do it at some point--- it's the marriage that counts, not the stuff. I never got my rings resized after being preg with twins 10 years ago----(my wedding band was $40!) I just keep my rings in my drawer--- I don't need to wear them to know my marriage is awesome. Why the heck are my fingers still so huge anyway?

amother

Emerald

Thu, Dec 29 2016, 12:06 am

amother wrote:

Please. Speaking as a kallah who was "cheaped on" dont do it. Save for ur sons and dip into that money for kallah jewelery. Every kallah deserves a bracelet, a ring and candlesticks and something for yichud room. This is her only time in life she shines, dont be cheap at her expense.

I don't think this poster is being spoiled or selfish. It is absolutely reasonable to expect things that most of your social circle is getting.

All of you "martyrs" who are "making due" with less and feel so good about it - good for you. But there's nothing wrong with wanting to be like most other people.

Frum families know the expenses that go along with engagements, so making sure to save for that momentous occasion is the right thing to do.

amother

Cobalt

Thu, Dec 29 2016, 12:33 am

I wonder if the key to helping underpriviledged kallahs feel happy with what they have, is for those who receieve big expensive jewelery gifts to keep it quiet?
Just wondering that, because I have been married for over 15 years, and never ever felt bad for what I received from dh.

Here's what he bought me:
1 engagement ring, approx value $1300
2 wedding ring, approx value $80
(Dont wear either of them anyway, I never liked rings, just find them so annoying and uncomfortable, I much prefer necklaces adn bracelets to rings and earrings....)
3 Silver plated candlesticks, approx value $50 (and btw,I love them)
4 A book for my birthday that fell during our engagement
5 A leather bound tehillim for our wedding day.
6 Yichud room gift was a long awaited kiss.

But, I never knew I was missing anything, I never knew that other girls received lots of expensive jewelery. If I had known , maybe I would have been a little sad.
So how about we members of klal yisrael just train ourselves to tone it down. NObody needs to know about our birthday gifts, chanukah gifts, Push presents (never heard of tha tuntil I found imamother) etc. .

moonstone

Thu, Dec 29 2016, 4:44 am

DrMom wrote:

I'd feel very unshiny knowing my in-laws were socially pressured into laying out huge sums to give me a luxurious gift they cannot afford.

Love it, Dr. Mom! Yes, I'd feel horribly guilty every time I put on those pearls, which I would probably never do because I don't like pearls. They seem so "old lady" to me. I wonder if a lot of these teenaged brides don't like pearls either but don't dare say anything.

We're MO, so we don't have this ridiculous list of gifts that must be given. My in-laws gave me a lovely gold necklace that I wasn't expecting at all. I certainly wouldn't have been angry had they not given me anything.

This list of gifts doesn't even sound like gifts. It sounds like a checklist that must be followed. Here's your bracelet, here's your pearls. Where's my watch? Sorry, forgot it. Here you go. It all sounds so business-like, but then so do a lot of these shidduchim. I wonder if the purpose of these gifts is to make the kallah feel better about marrying a man she hardly knows.

ally

Thu, Dec 29 2016, 6:11 am

amother wrote:

To me, this is the true midda of tznius.

watergirl

Thu, Dec 29 2016, 6:32 am

amother wrote:

A martyr is someone who chooses to go without. I dont think these women (myself included - I didnt get any of these things either!) choose not to get wedding gifts. Sure, some dont like rings/jewelry. But thats not what I'm seeing reflected here. I'm seeing mature women who understand that there arent the means for gifts that society says we need to have. The list of required stuff is mind boggling and creates a lie. I've said it many times and I'll say it again. This stuff is not always given out of love. Its a socially engineered pattern which exists. I cant understand how a girl can wear jewels which were given because "everyone else has it and its expected".
You suggestes that a family has to save for jewels in the frum community, as a frum person, you know that this is an expected expence. Fine. So a family has a few sons. They are on tuition assistance. They've saved $2,000 for the oldest son's kallah - that money should buy a girl some diamonds? Or pay the school? Or pay a bill? A mechanic? Can you honestly say that a family should be diverting their modest means (if they dont have the excess income) to buy a 19 or 20 year old a bracelet?
So because I choose to live my life according to torah and mitzvos, that also means that I have to save money (which is needed elsewhere) to go along with a socially constructed version of "showing love"? Better to not be frum, then to be frum and struggle financially? Is that what your post is implying?
Even a $2,000 kallah jewelry package is a lot of money for some.

Rabbis and therapists alike have said that people are so stressed from these expences. Where will it end?

For the comment that not getting the gifts causes shalom bayis issues - dear, the issues come from the immature kallah who make demands and assumptions ("they have the money. They just didnt buy it because they font agree with it"). You dont get to choose how other people spend their money!

And yes, I know there is pressure and it hurts when your friends have and you dont. That will never end. In a year, you may have things that they dont. A baby. A job. A husband who takes out the trash.

I know that in some communities, we are all given the same stuff; head bands and shoes in kindergarten, dresses, backpacks,coats - this is our own way of creating millennials. Frum kids who expect it all and throw a fit when they dont get it. Cause shalom bayis issues. Whatever. It needs to end.

Signed, a mother of 2 little boys who does not have the means to buy jewels, and who will not take money from the yeshiva or braces fund to put away for a bracelet.

watergirl

Thu, Dec 29 2016, 6:39 am

amother wrote:

And Ill add this. Like many have mentioned - our social circles are made up of millionairs and poor who send to the same school. We dont all have the same means. We should not be getting the same stuff. Thats not how the world works. No one has the right to expect anything. I'm sorry if you married someone who didnt fork over the goods.

amother

Ruby

Thu, Dec 29 2016, 7:04 am

Squishy wrote:

What does kallah jewelry actually cost?

Note to all posters. Aside from the wedding ring itself, Kallah jewelry is NOT halachically required. It's an overpriced, pointless minhag IMHO. If you have that kind of money, buy the Kallah a vacation for her and her new DH. I didn't receive a bean of Kallah jewelry because I view it as wasteful and pointless, not because of cost. I don't understand why it is seen as the "norm" to spend these exorbitant prices on something that halacha doesn't require. If someone can't feel like a beautiful kallah without shiny, sparkly pieces, that to me sounds like they have low self esteem. Women should feel beautiful without trinkets IMHO. And people should be able to show love without the pressure of having to buy this stuff.

amother

Forestgreen

Thu, Dec 29 2016, 7:05 am

watergirl wrote:

Thank you for expressing this so articulately!

This is exactly what I think about these things.

And no, I don't feel like a martyr. Just like I don't feel like a martyr that my husband didn't buy me a Lamborghini for my birthday, I don't feel like a martyr for not getting loads of expensive jewelry from my in laws when I was engaged.

I think that as you said, the underlying problem is that everyone is expected to be the same, get the same, live the same type of lives.

When the simple truth is: rich people can buy more than poor people. Upper middle class people can afford more luxuries and jewels than lower middle class people. It's just a fact.

And the solution is not to impose uniform standards on everyone so that no one is God forbid deprived of the expensive things their neighbors are getting.

The solution is to accept this fact of life and learn to be happy, truly happy without constantly comparing, and without creating and giving into unsustainable societal demands. To live for oneself and not for one's neighbors.

Which can be a very hard internal process to undertake the way so many frum communities raise their children.

moonstone

Thu, Dec 29 2016, 8:05 am

watergirl wrote:

Well put, Watergirl. I think they need to stop calling these things gifts. They are not gifts. I buy someone a gift because I care for them. I choose the gift based on the individual qualities of the recipient. This inventory list of jewelry is not bought to "show love", as you correctly put in quotes. It's not love, it's an obligation to a girl that the future in-laws probably barely know. When every girl is getting the exact same gift, it's not a gift. It's just another (unnecessary) wedding expense. At least be honest and put it on the list of wedding expenses along with band, dress, flowers, etc. This jewelry is not a gift.

cbg

Thu, Dec 29 2016, 8:28 am

IMO
IMO
IMO

I think it is important to give the kallah nice gifts.
And that means spend A LITTLE extra.
We are not talking about losing your home over this.
If the parents can't afford EVERYTHING that's expected, at least a diamond engagement ring, and let the rest be less.
Yes it means a $3000 ring, but then get $100 candle stick. A lot of girls are liking the Michael Aram look, also it's easier to clean.

No one here is talking about the chattan's gifts. A huge shas that most probably won't ever be touched, because it's easier to learn from something lighter weight? A. REALLY expensive watch? A Becher that's a pain to clean?

I think when ones son becomes engaged that a budget on gifts should be put aside. $3600 total is a reasonable amount. Scrimp somewhere else. This is an expense more important than anything spent on FLOP.

And if you can afford it $5000, or more if you choose to do so, just don't flaunt it.

Again, this is only IMO

33055

Thu, Dec 29 2016, 8:37 am

amother wrote:

I'm the amother with the 2500 package, I think 1200 candlesticks, and Artscroll interlinear machzorim from a set sale.
If 20K is average, some people are spending WAY more.

I never saw $20,000 worth of kallah jewelry on anyone. The jewellery is modest.

I wrote on another thread that I turned it down when it was offered as tzedducah. Firstly, I was uncomfortable taking charity for jewelry. And it is not my minhag, so the whole concept was strange to me.

Secondly, the jewelry is best suited for young teenagers, and I got married late.

Thirdly, DH urged me to take the package offered. He was shamed he couldn't afford this for his kallah. Many people came up to me to ask to see my jewelry. While I am oblivious, I totally can understand why a kallah would feel bad. I understand why DH felt bad. It is too much of a thing in our circle.

I have a close friend I really admire. She is well educated khollel wife with an extremely large family spaced close together. Her kids are all excellent kids. She works 4 jobs to afford what her family needs. We were talking about kallah jewelry and she told me how she resented not having "pretty things to wear". She seemed a bit bitter. I wouldn't judge anyone's midos who grew up in this system as this woman is a role model to me and many others. She is the most selfless person I know.

leopardspots

Thu, Dec 29 2016, 8:43 am

moonstone wrote:

Exactly, it's all a social construct. It's almost like when a company gives their employees knapsacks and other tchotchkes with a company logo. It's generic. All this pressure to buy one size fits all gifts with one size fits all (even though it doesn't) price tags is a reflection of the value of conformity in the communities that follow these practices.

mummiedearest

Thu, Dec 29 2016, 9:16 am

cbg wrote:

but why is the engagement ring from the parents at all? it should be from the guy. the whole engagement ring thing was a marketing campaign from the diamond industry, and it was aimed at guys. it convinced them that in order to show a girl you loved her, you had to spend a certain percentage of your salary on a diamond ring. this isn't even a jewish thing, so why are the parents obligated to fund this? and yes, $3000 is a LOT for one piece of jewelry. this is not a reasonable expectation. the only time I can see the engagement ring coming from the parents is if it is a family heirloom and they're passing it down. if it needs to be put in a new setting, that should be paid for by the groom, not his parents.

as for the groom's presents, we discussed this when we got engaged. turns out, he had a shas already, had a kiddush cup, and had a watch that he liked. I bought him cufflinks. I did. I used my own money. my parents bought him 2 tallesim and a kittel. they insisted on doing this, and he would have been happy to purchase these things for himself. and he would have bought 1 tallis, not two.

wedding gift giving is no longer gift giving. it's extortion. I've known single parents who lost sleep for months because their children were marrying into families that demanded all these things, and they honestly couldn't afford this. couples have a hard enough time meeting these demands, struggling single parents should certainly not feel obligated in this way. but they do, and it's sick.