Italian doctor describes dealing with coronavirus

ora_43

Tue, Mar 10 2020, 5:07 pm

amother [ Chocolate ] wrote:

I suppose I just don't get it.

Why is it unreasonable to point out that Italy has an aging population and is therefore more vulnerable than other countries with regard to the coronavirus?

I'm not saying it won't happen here. Unfortunately it most certainly will. That being said it would appear the Italians have a heightened risk because they have an elderly population.

Is this controversial???

I doubt having an aging population means the virus spreads more quickly. I doubt that's what you were saying.

Which makes "Italy is more vulnerable" confusing. What part of having more elderly people is making the situation worse?

Are you saying that Italy's hospitals are more crowded because such a large percent of the population, relatively, is vulnerable? Whereas in countries with a smaller % of elderly there will be more resources available?

Or are you saying that in Italy it matters more that a bunch of elderly people are ill, because they are such a large percent of the population, but in countries like, say, Israel or Mexico or wherever with a higher birthrate, it won't matter so much if some sick/elderly people die because most people will be just fine?

I'm not accusing you of saying that second thing. But you see how it can be unclear? Especially when in recent days there have been so many posts dismissing covid-19 as not really such a big deal because it mostly kills older people.

amother

Chocolate

Tue, Mar 10 2020, 5:40 pm

ora_43 wrote:

I think people look for drama. Some try to find a "gotcha" which is why often people intentionally take things out of context.
If I say, "I really think the class has too much recess". Someone will often take this comment completely out of context and say, "oh, so you don't think the class should have any recess. How cruel".

I was commenting on the op's post regarding an interview with an Italian doctor who was describing a catastrophic situation in Italy". All I said was Italy is more vulnerable because they are an elderly population. I think it's obvious I meant they are more susceptible to get sick and have a harder time recovering.
To even suggest I meant that:
Italy is more vulnerable as opposed to Israel, which has more young people, because old people don't matter and a place like israel with a higher birthrate, will easily replace those old folks.

Anyone whose mind drew this conclusion should be writing mystery novels.

amother

Pewter

Tue, Mar 10 2020, 7:12 pm

I also don't understand how people are concluding from a simple statement of fact that this somehow means that the stater of the facts somehow thinks of elderly and immunocompromosed people as "disposable" or "not mattering". Of course every life matters! But it is important to understand that panic helps literally nobody, least of all the people you're claiming to be concerned about. All the healthy people hoarding resources are HURTING the more vulnerable people. If people don't understand that this virus is really not much to worry about if you're young and healthy, it will end up HURTING the people who ARE more susceptible to complications. I want a bed to be available if chv my 89 year old grandmother or my 45 year old cancer survivor friend needs it. I don't want the system clogged up by 25 year olds with the sniffles.

If I am told to go into quarantine, of course I will go! I would not think for a second to take chances with that. But until then, I'm going about my usual business except for washing my hands more often than usual. There are SOME people who should not be business as usual right now. But if you're not vulnerable and you're not someone who needs to be quarantined right now, there is no reason to put life on hold. Not sure why this should be so controversial or mean that I don't care about those who we really do need to worry about.

SixOfWands

Tue, Mar 10 2020, 7:49 pm

First of all, the US has 6 times more people over the age of 80, and 7 times more over 65, than Italy. Of course, the US is bigger. About 21% of the population of Italy is over 65, and about 14% of the US population. The numbers just aren't that different.

But its the same kind of magical, absurdist thinking that has hurt the US reaction thus far. Oh, we're different. Its not going to come here. And if it does, our experience will be different. Sure, more than 3% of people die elsewhere. But not here.

Well, yes. HERE.

And yes, you should be changing your life. If you take public transit, you should shift hours to commute off hours. You should be more vigilant with hand washing. You should consider where you go and what you do. Especially if you're sick, even with the sniffles.

amother

Babypink

Tue, Mar 10 2020, 7:58 pm

Positive thinking is one thing but DENIAL is a deep and dangerous river.

There is a 9 year old in Israel with this virus! NO ONE IS IMMUNE. If you think its no biggie like a "bad cold" or flu please for your own sake that of your family and community and the whole world educate yourself and read testimonials of those who have survived it. Many were written by people in their 30's.
The more seriously we all take this and do our hishtadlus the sooner it will end IY"H.

amother

Jade

Wed, Mar 11 2020, 2:19 am

amother [ Babypink ] wrote:

Just curious, did it say that the 9-year-old is in serious condition? We know children can get it, there were newborns with it in China.

We know nobody is immune, but most people (especially younger people) get mild and/or asymptomatic cases.

amother

Pearl

Wed, Mar 11 2020, 2:27 am

FranticFrummie wrote:

The letter is heartbreaking, and the sorrow and exhaustion is visceral. The person who wrote this is very talented, and I am glad that they could be so expressive during a crisis like this.

I continue to be appalled at how cavalier young and healthy people are about the situation. "Oh, they were old and sick. They were going to die soon anyway. Thin the herd and there will be more resources for the survivors!" (OK, I made that last part up, but that's the feeling I get.) It's just heartless.

Do you really think that the elderly and the immunocompromised have nothing to contribute to the world? If every gadol hador of our generation got sick and died, would you feel different? What if it were YOUR grandparents, YOUR child with asthma, YOUR husband with heart disease?

As long as you can say "those people", you are removing yourself from humanity.

I am taking this very personally. I am older, I have preexisting conditions, and I am very ill with a bad cough right now. Do I offer nothing? Will you all miss me if I die (CVS)?

Oh please. Can the drama.

ora_43

Wed, Mar 11 2020, 6:29 am

amother [ Chocolate ] wrote:

Don't be rude, I'm trying to help you. You were the one who said you genuinely didn't understand how anyone could read bad meaning into your post.

If you weren't confused at all, and thought from the beginning that you were perfectly clear and people must be deliberately misunderstanding, you could have just said so.

But I think you're still missing the logic of what people are telling you. "They" are more susceptible to get sick - who?? Italians as a whole? What does it matter if 20% of Italy is vulnerable, compared to only 5% of Israel? Why would it not matter far more that 100% of elderly Israelis are vulnerable, just like 100% of elderly Italians? The same number of hospital beds would be needed here; the same numbers of people could chv"s get ill or die.

If anything we could be more vulnerable, since our hospitals are built for a largely healthy population - ie, the number of beds matches what you'd need in a society where only 5% of people are ill and elderly, not 20% (and our hospitals were already overcrowded compared to Italy's).

(Israel being just an example, here)

amother

Chocolate

Wed, Mar 11 2020, 7:57 am

ora_43 wrote:

Sorry if I came off as rude. I appreciate your reply.
I think you're making some good arguments. You say why not compare 100% of Israel's elderly population to 100% of Italy's elderly population.
Or perhaps Israel is more vulnerable than italy because Italy's hospitals are likely more equipped and ready to handle more patients at any given time as opposed to Israel whose hospitals might get overwhelmed with a smaller percentage of patients.

I hadn't thought of either of these arguments and both can be part of the discussion of whose populations more at risk.
I still feel the comment "Italy is more vulnerable to coronavirus because they have elderly population", would warrant a response such as the ones you suggested, such as, perhaps Italy is less vulnerable since their hospitals can handle more patients. That's fair.
But to take the comment that Italy is more vulnerable to mean that Israel (as an example) is less vulnerable because if Israel's old people die it's no big deal since Israel has a high birth rate- is just plain crazy.

amother

Jade

Wed, Mar 11 2020, 8:25 am

amother [ Cyan ] wrote:

108 deaths in italy in one day
cnn.com

Cyan, can I ask you to possibly start a new thread for all of your updates and post them there and only there? You can keep bumping it if you don't think your readership is high enough.

I find it annoying to read the same updates over and over again in any thread that mentions coronavirus.

In addition, they are usually off-topic to the specific point of the thread. This thread, for example, was discussing the health crisis in Italy, with too many patients for the amount of hospital space. Although I'm sure you can draw some connection with that to the presence of the National Guard in New Rochelle, unless your update mentions that New Rochelle or Westchester is out of hospital space, it really is NOT relevant.

Thank you in advance for your consideration!

Laiya

Wed, Mar 11 2020, 11:41 am

A major factor in Italy is the condition of its socialized health care system over the past 10-20 years. Their health care system never fully recovered after the 2008 crash, but Italy had been reducing spending before then. For several years, due to these cuts, Italy has been contending with doctor shortages, threatened doctor strikes, long waiting lists for routine procedures, out of pocket payments skyrocketing, corruption scandals, pharmaceutical investors leaving the country, etc.

Articles on this topic from just a few months and three and four years ago sound eerily prescient in their warnings of a looming health care crisis in Italy.

ora_43

Wed, Mar 11 2020, 11:54 am

amother [ Chocolate ] wrote:

Sorry if I came off as rude. I appreciate your reply.

Whoops. Sorry I jumped down your throat, then.

... to be honest, I wasn't sure whether I was offended at "Anyone whose mind drew this conclusion should be writing mystery novels," or flattered. I would love to be good at writing mystery novels. Since you're being so nice about it, I'll go with "flattered" from here on out.

Quote:

But to take the comment that Italy is more vulnerable to mean that Israel (as an example) is less vulnerable because if Israel's old people die it's no big deal since Israel has a high birth rate- is just plain crazy.

Fair. I should have been more clear that I definitely didn't read your post that way. I think people are just extra-sensitive because there have been some insensitive posts in general (not even necessarily on this site) - a lot of "oh but it's not really as bad as they say because it's sick and old people," with the "just" heavily implied.