Having an english name

1stimer

Thu, Nov 03 2005, 12:47 pm

A friend's father was going to register his firstborn son and in front of him stood an Arab. The arab told this guy that he was going to name his son some unpronouncable muslim name. So my friends father thought if he can then so can I! And he registered him and all his other kids wiht their hebrew names.

stem

Thu, Nov 03 2005, 12:58 pm

My first has a hebrew name that is easily prounouncable in English so we didn't give her an english name. my second has a hebrew name that is completely unpronounceable in english, so on his birth certificate is says the english version of his name. No one calls him by his english name except at the doctor, etc.
My husband also had to make up an english version of his name when he started college and work so we decided to make our kids lives easier.

613

Thu, Nov 03 2005, 1:09 pm

we only use our kids hebrew names- even on their birth certificates. so far I haven't had any bad experiences... the non jews don't pronounce the name exactly (one of their names has a ches), so if it's close enough I let it slide. if it's way off, and it's a person who I'll be in contact w/ often (ie. doctor, co-worker) then, I'll correct it. but if it's some joe shmoe working at the dept. of vital records, why bother correcting?
my dh went by his english name all his life.... until he started dating- then he switched to his hebrew, but he doesn't make his parents or friends from the past call him the hebrew name. You should've seen the benchers at his aufruf, they said:
Aufruf of English Name (Hebrew Name) Last Name.
It was pretty funny!
and we had 2 separate wedding invitations- his english name for his parents, and hebrew name on my side. you may think we're meshuga, but there was another change on the invitation that I wanted, but the in-laws didn't, so for shalom bayis my father didn't mind having two separate ones (it didn't cost much more either!).

chen

Thu, Nov 03 2005, 2:34 pm

ElTam wrote:

Are we suggesting to them that they should behave differently in the velt?

Not at all. Robert Cohen or Levy is obviously a Yid.
But, actually, they should behave EVEN BETTER in the velt.

Motek

Thu, Nov 03 2005, 5:24 pm

1stimer wrote:

I've heard it said (from a reputable source, not sure who but can find out if anyone wants) that they needed those three things in egypt b/c they didn't have the torah but now there is no inyan in being called only by your hebrew name.

I'd like a source for that. I find it hard to believe. Uncle Moishy sings about Jewish names and he knows about things like this Wink

. And I have wondered what Jewish parents of children who are called by their non jewish names do/say when they play the tape with that song ...

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I don't think so, we are just making life more convenient.

but isn't the convience in order to blend in with the non jews?

why do Jews feel they have to adjust their names so non jews can "feel comfortable" with them? Do non jews pick names that are comfortable for one and all? Haven't you noticed that even born and bred Americans are picking weird names for their kids? Sometimes, when reading an article, don't know if the author is male or female from their name Confused

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seems that some Arabs, at least, have pride in who they are while Jews often lack this pride, even frum Jews Sad

My father had a Jewish and a non jewish name. At some point, decades ago, he legally changed his name so that now he only has a Jewish name. He has worked among non jews and always used his Jewish name though he pronounced it slightly different for them, to make it easier for them to say.

spelling makes a difference too

someone who named her daughter dina, spells it Deena so that nobody mispronounces it with a long I

Meema2Kids

Thu, Nov 03 2005, 5:35 pm

I always felt confused about my identity because I have both English and Yiddush names. Usually would be called by my English name, only used Yiddish name in Hebrew school (sometimes)
Because of this when we had our daughter we wanted to choose a name that was the same in Hebrew and English (this was before we were frum). The English part wasn't even a consideration for our other kids.

I still go by my English name at work but it's hard to remember to answer the phone with that. My DH has gotten a new job since becoming frum and he goes by his Hebrew name at work. We both really feel this is our essence.

When we first started going by our Jewish names the only time I'd use his english one was when I was mad at him. Tongue Out

Tovah

Thu, Nov 03 2005, 5:48 pm

chen, go figure? anyways all my doc call me tovah I don't even think they know my english name which is jewish so go figure that?

Rivk

Thu, Nov 03 2005, 5:53 pm

When people refer to having a "Yiddish name" do they really mean Yiddish or do they mean Jewish - like it could be Hebrew too? I'm wondering about the difference in kidusha of a Hebrew name versus a Yiddish name. Is there still the "essence thing" with a Yiddish name? Why do some people insist on giving Hebrew names and not Yiddish?

micki

Thu, Nov 03 2005, 6:06 pm

only jewish names here- and I have a name that was butchered I mean REALLY butchered all my life.
its been thought I was a boy, I was called spanish names, names of buildings, names of a charachter, and some unprounouncable even to me.

my kids except for one have very pronouncable names but that was never a part in deciding their names.

they say that a name touches the nashama. I once heard that if you want to wake up a kid and call them by their nickname like rikki, they may not respond.
but call them rivka ansd they will.

Rivka

Thu, Nov 03 2005, 7:24 pm

I also learnt that in Egypt the Jews were only let out of Egypt because they kept those three things because they didn't have the torah. We are on a much lower level than they were but we are still Jewish so that is what already sets us aside from the rest of the world.
They didn't have that.
Anyway talking about English names, did you know all the yiddish names people call their kids are just German names?? Names like Dov Ber, that is like saying Dov Bear, it's the Hebrew and the German name together.
Hinda, Raizel - Rose. Baila- Belle. Aryeh Leib = Aryeh Lion.
So I don't see what is wrong with doing the same with an English name.
I gave my son an English name, but it's the same as his Hebrew name. So I don't really see it as a non Jewish name at all.
I don't like CH names personally so I wouldn't call any of my kids a name like that. Some names I wouldn't give an English equivalent, depends on the hebrew name I chose.
Nicole I am really curious what you called your kid. There are some really nice non Jewish names that are really pretty.

cindy324

Thu, Nov 03 2005, 8:00 pm

they say that a name touches the nashama. I once heard that if you want to wake up a kid and call them by their nickname like rikki, they may not respond.
but call them rivka ansd they will.
Micki I've heard that too. I named one of my kids Avital, and when someone heard me calling her Tali, she said Iz should call her by her full name

TzenaRena

Thu, Nov 03 2005, 8:05 pm

Rivka wrote:

also learnt that in Egypt the Jews were only let out of Egypt because they kept those three things because they didn't have the torah. We are on a much lower level than they were but we are still Jewish so that is what already sets us aside from the rest of the world.
They didn't have that.
Anyway talking about English names, did you know all the yiddish names people call their kids are just German names?? Names like Dov Ber, that is like saying Dov Bear, it's the Hebrew and the German name together.
Hinda, Raizel - Rose. Baila- Belle. Aryeh Leib = Aryeh Lion.
So I don't see what is wrong with doing the same with an English name.
I gave my son an English name, but it's the same as his Hebrew name. So I don't really see it as a non Jewish name at all.
I don't like CH names personally so I wouldn't call any of my kids a name like that. Some names I wouldn't give an English equivalent, depends on the hebrew name I chose.
Nicole I am really curious what you called your kid. There are some really nice non Jewish names that are really pretty

_________________

Rivka you're wrong about that. Names that have been accepted by the Jewish nation and become customary amongst Jews have acquired the holiness of Jewish custom. The first such name recorded in the Torah, as a matter of fact is none other than that of the greatest Navi and Tzaddik of all time: Moshe Rabbenu!, whose name derived from the Egyptian language! And although he had numerous other names (Yedidy-a, Avigdor, Tuviah and others) the name the Torah calls him is the "Egyptian" one!

The Yiddish language, which may have 'evolved' from other foreign tongues has nevertheless become hallowed and sacred. It is the language with which Jews spoke, and learned and taught Torah almost exclusively for hundreds of years. The Baal Shem Tov, the Mezritscher Maggid, and all their talmidim and their followers, all the Chabad Rebbeim.... taught their Chassidus in this language.

It is also the language with which the Gedolim of previous generations taught their Torah.

Another example of a tongue spoken by a nation that oppressed the Jews! but was adopted by the Jewish people is the language of the Gemara - Aramaic! This language in which Jews spoke learned and prayed during times of Galus,for hundreds of years has a degree of holiness, according to halacha.

The Rebbe has spoken about this, and refers to the Yiddish language as a holy one! All the Torah learned and avodas Hashem that Yidden performed for centuries in this language elevated it, and made it a lashon of kedusha.

One might ask an innocent question, why can't I name my child with a non-Jewish name, and elevate it too? The answer is that elevating matters from non jewish sources is not the avodah for ordinary people. This is a task for Tzaddikim, as explained in Tanya chpt. 28 :

Quote:

Nor should he be foolish by attempting to sublimate the middos of the extraneous thought[machshavah zarah], as is known. For such things were meant only for tzaddikim, in whom extraneous thoughts do not occur of their own making, but those of others. But as for him whose extraneous thought is his own, from the aspect of evil that is in the left part of his heart, how can he raise it up when he himself is bound below?

For example, a tzaddik can elevate a song: for example "Napoleon's march", a victory march we sing at the conclusion of Yom Kippur, or when the Chassidim go on Tahalucha to spread the teachings of Chassidus. this niggun was extracted from the kelipah of Napoleon by the Alter Rebbe, who transformed it to holiness.

Similarly, during hakafos in October of 1973 during the Yom Kippur war, the Rebbe began to sing "Hoaderes V'haemunah" to the tune of the French National Anthem. With that, doubtlessly the Rebbe broke the power of France, (never a great friend of Israel, and actively allied with the enemy forces), which indeed shortly thereafter changed their national anthem to a different song!

The reason a tzaddik can do it is because "he is bound up with higher".

Similarly, during the times of Alexander Mokdon ( of Macedonia - Alexander the Great), when Shimon HaTzaddik, the Kohen Gadol and leader of the generation promised him that all newborn children would be named for him.... Thousands of Jewish children were called by this (originally) non jewish name! But that is the license of tzaddikim. They can elevate the world, and worldliness. They are higher than world, since they are "tzugebunden aiben" connected with G-d.

Last edited by TzenaRena on Fri, Nov 04 2005, 1:37 am; edited 2 times in total

cindy324

Thu, Nov 03 2005, 8:09 pm

I also think it's good to give a child an english name for convenience sake. I think they'll have an easier time as adults , no matter where they may end up. Now a little word of advice: If you're going to give an english name , give something he or she won't cringe it when used. I have a friend who decided to be extra frum(that's the only explanation I can think of for this) and name her child after her great grandmother in Yiddish AND in english. The kid's yiddish name is Faigy, and her english name is --GET READY--Fanny!!!! She told me before she made it official, and I begged her to think about how her child's going to feel when she goes for a job interview at a non jewish place, hands over her SS card, and they start calling a 20 some year old girl Fanny. I would be mortified if that was me. I'm sorry, but that's a name of a little elderly lady. Just my 2 cents.

youngmom

Fri, Nov 04 2005, 12:52 am

a bit off topic, but I actually know someone who's jewish name is fanny!

deedee

Fri, Nov 04 2005, 1:07 am

I am called by my english name all my life. became frum at a young age and didnt want to use my hebrew name. I love my english name!
in high school some of my hebrew teachers would call me by my hebrew name. one of the teachers explained that since ur hebrew name is what is written on ur ketuba u have to be called by it at some time in your life so it really is ur name. it was a little embarassing for me though when the teacher called on me and everyone looked around to see who she was talking about!
our daughter has no english name but a very pronouncable hebrew name. this wasnt even a consideration when she was named, but I knew it was confusing with 2 names so I only wanted her to have a hebrew name.
who are the non jews any way that we are so nice not to inconvience them with a hard to pronounce name?!?!? if they really cared they would try their best and hardest to say it the correct way. I'm sure they dont have us in mind when they name their children!

micki

Fri, Nov 04 2005, 8:34 am

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who are the non jews any way that we are so nice not to inconvience them with a hard to pronounce name?!?!? if they really cared they would try their best and hardest to say it the correct way. I'm sure they dont have us in mind when they name their children!

so true!!!!!

Rochel Leah

Fri, Nov 04 2005, 11:00 am

micki wrote:

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so true!!!!!

Exactly, an I am sure the arabs or other nationalities with even more strange names don't think about others either.

I work for a volunteer orginization where we sometimes have non-jews applying to volunteer. one of the girls name was really hard to figure out.. I had to call back ask what her name was. the name was "heea.."

1stimer

Sat, Nov 05 2005, 1:42 pm

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I'd like a source for that.

Rav Moshe Feinstein has a teshuva about this, he says it is no longer a big deal to be called by a hebrew name. Already from the time of the gemarra they were called by aramaic names, abaya and rava. But if uncle moishie says different...

1stimer

Sat, Nov 05 2005, 1:48 pm

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It's not primarily for their convenience but for our convenience, so we don't have to go through the 'what did you say your name was, what? how do you spell it?' all so that they call you a different name anyway.

supermom

Sat, Nov 05 2005, 3:26 pm

1stimer I always enjoyed the fact that no one was able to pronounce my name let alone spell it. now what about last names. my last name both before I got married and now still no one can spell it and sometimes can't even pronounce it. it is funny how they at the end of a conversation pronounce our last name.