Taking (borrowing) kids money to pay for necessities?

amother

Molasses

Mon, Sep 04 2023, 4:48 pm

If he wouldn't notice it was gone ie it was replaced quickly enough...

For example not the same but my 5 year old has a wallet with cash and he counts it and knows every penny. I took a dollar to tip the delivery guy and I replaced the dollar the next day. That's literally the only scenario I can imagine is okay

Electronically if you see subtraction then you need to discuss with the teen

amother

Violet

Mon, Sep 04 2023, 4:52 pm

amother Dill wrote:

Very controversial here but kids have time when they’re older to have money. If a family is struggling it’s totally not a problem to use the kids money as your own. At the end of the day you buy them toys and clothing and what not?

They have everything they need bh. Money won’t help them now.

As for teens that WORK for their money, let them have it. If you’re tight then you can borrow if you have a payback plan. If they’re old enough to work, they’re old enough to understand that finances aren’t easy always.

Halachically, minor kids money belongs to parents & once the child reaches bar/bas mitzvah, it belongs to the child and it is considered stealing to take money from them without permission.

amother

Tomato

Mon, Sep 04 2023, 4:58 pm

How does the kid have $? Do they know what they have?

15 years ago, we were very flush and DH gave the kids about 50k each. It is a separate account, not with their birthday $, or $ from jobs or even grandparents $. They have no idea it exists. It also only exists because DH gave it to them. It also only pertains to the ones who were born then, not the younger ones who were born when times were harder.
So some of my kids have $ and others don’t. But it is all money DH put there, as opposed to in our account.

What are your thoughts in this situation.

amother

Alyssum

Mon, Sep 04 2023, 5:01 pm

Before doing anything check with your tax accountant - you don’t want to inadvertently create a tax event - kids’ money and custodial accounts are taxed differently than adults afaik

Also how old are your kids? Sometimes parents are completely convinced something is a secret when it turns out it is not and wouldnt necessarily be in the future

Like even think bank records

Hugs and hatzlocha

amother

Pink

Mon, Sep 04 2023, 6:57 pm

I BORROWED money from my teen several times-with his knowledge and consent. Paid it back within a few days, max a week every time.

He made a comment at one point that made me realize my borrowing money from him (even though I paid it back fully and fairly immediately) was making him anxious (about my financial situation). The anxiety was unwarranted as I was borrowing the money short term until I could transfer the money from another bank account but I understand why my borrowing it triggered that reaction and I have never done it again, as well as truly regret it.

Please think twice before borrowing from your child!

amother

Oatmeal

Mon, Sep 04 2023, 7:20 pm

amother Tomato wrote:

This goes behind whether it belongs to your children because his can you gift oniy certain children a significant amount.

The appropriate thing is to divide the total amount by number of children and then use that amount for for each child to fund for what you were planning to use it for whether it is wedding, education or down payment.

amother

Melon

Tue, Sep 05 2023, 1:11 am

amother Violet wrote:

Halachically, minor kids money belongs to parents & once the child reaches bar/bas mitzvah, it belongs to the child and it is considered stealing to take money from them without permission.

Yikes is this true? We borrow money from our kids several times and pay back when we have it. It's easier than withdrawing money from a mutual fund and paying taxes since their money is more "liquid". If we saw we didn't have it, we can theoretically take it from our mutual funds. Our kids don't know how much money they have in their accounts. They don't even have access to it. So they don't see it and really don't know about it. Some is money from when they were born that they received as gifts and we put away for them (I know I know, many parents use this money in the first place.) other is bar mitzvah money etc.

They don't need to spend their own money bec we provide everything for them so that's why they are pretty clueless about the amount in their banks, they don't monitor it. (not saying this is a reason to use their money, just pointing out that it's BEC we provide everything for them that they don't even look at their bank account)

Although now that you are pointing it out, I'm assuming they will gain access to it eventually when they are adults and can look back and see the withdrawals and deposits. It never occurred to me that it's a halachic issue though. is this black and white?? Theoretically I guess they are losing some interest if we keep it in a savings account. But I look at is as we are spending all this money on them. Maybe at minimum we should keep track of missed interest. It's probably just a couple dollars so not a big deal for us to repay.

but aside from losing the interest, I dont see why it's a big deal and no I wouldn't ask in advance, that would make them anxious about our finances. And I especially don't think it's a big deal if we have the funds elsewhere and it's just easier to take from them to borrow. (Obviously best case scenario would be to not need their money but sometimes we need the extra money)

amother

Cornsilk

Tue, Sep 05 2023, 4:55 am

amother OP wrote:

Would you borrow money without asking permission from a teenage child to pay a credit card bill that will otherwise lead to high interest? I don't know whether to call it taking or borrowing because the intention is to pay back but there's no foreseeable plan in the coming months to actually do so.

Also, getting a 15 year old child involved in finances and explaining the need for money seems wrong because they shouldn't be thinking and worrying about finances at the age.

I had this conversation with my friend this morning. She feels they should just go into debt rather than borrow from kids. Her dh feels that debt at high interest is a financial death spiral and must be avoided at all costs. He doesn't feel comfortable taking from the kids. But he feels there's 2 bad choices and taking from kids is less bad. Any opinions?

No.

But possibly I say that because my parents rarely paid me back. My mother always said it was my father who didn't pay back but after they got divorced he gave me a check for what he owed me, and then the next time she borrowed she made me feel like garbage for asking her to repay.

If you don't usually borrow and you will 100% give it back then sign a contract and each of you keeps a copy and stick to that contract and when it says it'll be paid back.

amother

Tue, Sep 05 2023, 7:54 am

ora_43 wrote:

Nooooo don't do it. Never take from kids without asking permission.

Hearing that your parents are struggling financially can be scary and stressful for kids. But realizing that your money is gone and your parents are the ones who stole it would be SO MUCH WORSE.

Better a kid who is stressed together with his parents than a kid who loses trust in his parents.

Like others said, often there are options beyond the child and the credit card company. Gemachim, loans from friends or family, another card with a better rate, that kind of thing. But if those are the only two options: the best option is to borrow the teen's money with permission, second best is credit card debt, borrowing without permission is a non-option.

I appreciate all the responses. Very informative. Several posters have mentioned the need for permission. Here's the thing. A parent is in a dominant position relative to a child and further a child might not appreciate the vale of money yet. The point is that if a parent goes over to their teenager and says "hey, can I borrow 5k from you? I'll pay it back when I can", the child is more likely to agree because they don't appreciate the value of money or understand that when if a person needs to borrow, it often means they are struggling and might not be able to pay back despite their best intentions.

amother

Green

Tue, Sep 05 2023, 8:06 am

amother OP wrote:

Agree. Permission is meaningless. A child doesn't have capacity to give consent.

Imvho, a parent should never borrow from a child, period. Take that option off the table.

amother

Antiquewhite

Tue, Sep 05 2023, 8:22 am

My dh did that several times in the past without telling anyone. We found out when the kids went to check their balances and saw huge withdrawals. They felt betrayed. Dh didn’t see the problem. In his mind, he was going to pay it back, he was just waiting for a more convenient time to put the money back. (He did pay them back btw.) In the end after talking everything out in painful discussions, we agreed that his name would be taken off the kids’ bank accounts so he wouldn’t have access to their money. It was a terrible loss of trust. It affected dh’s relationship with some of the kids until today.

amother

Mayflower

Tue, Sep 05 2023, 8:40 am

amother OP wrote:

Two things - teenagers know the value of money. They may now know it to the extent that adults do, but they definitely know the value of it. Moreover, a teenager who is saving his money definitely knows about the value of money, otherwise they would have spent it immediately. A teen also understand the concept of people not being able to repay loans.

Secondly, I agree with the others that borrowing without permission is simply stealing. It is their money, - they worked for it (or earned it), they made the decision to save it for another day. If you simply come in and take that money, you're erasing all that. You're basically undermining all their efforts and that's very hurtful to your children coming from their own parents.

If I can be perfectly honest here, I think you're trying to rationalize something that deep down you know is not the right thing to do. I understand that you're in a very tough spot, (and I've been there myself), but as others have pointed out, check out other options first even if they're less appealing to you. If you do need to borrow money from your kids as a last resort, then do it with permission and never without. Trust takes a second to destroy, but a very long time to rebuild.

amother

Violet

Tue, Sep 05 2023, 8:58 am

amother OP wrote:

Taking their money without their knowledge is halachically stealing.
It's not a good idea to borrow money from a teen child. You need to find a different way.
It may also cause them anxiety about your finances.