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-> Interesting Discussions
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Scrabble123
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Thu, Jun 04 2015, 5:50 pm
MagentaYenta wrote: | I'd love to see the source of that photo, it's pretty evident it was posted to stir the pot. |
It made me think of prisons, which BTW often have to have an alternate lifestyle section.
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MagentaYenta
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Thu, Jun 04 2015, 6:05 pm
Scrabble123 wrote: | It made me think of prisons, which BTW often have to have an alternate lifestyle section. |
There is an inference that the male is a trans person, but I would love to see the source of the photo, with whatever article accompanied the original photo. But, it is what it is.
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marina
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Thu, Jun 04 2015, 9:44 pm
sure some people regret their reassignment surgeries. So what? Some women regret their boob surgery, some regret nose jobs, some men regret being circumcised, many regret gastric bypass surgery.... so what?
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HindaRochel
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Thu, Jun 04 2015, 10:31 pm
I don't have time for 11 pages but here's the best explanation gleaned from a t.v. show actually but in my own words.
If you as a woman put on pants you wouldn't suddenly think you are male, correct? If you were forced to wear pants against your will you would feel awful, but you still wouldn't feel like a man.
A trans person feels that as if they are being made to wear the wrong body.
I don't know or understand all the issues behind it but the mockery is uncalled for.
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shooting star
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Thu, Jun 04 2015, 10:53 pm
I didn't read all of the 11 pages but the title of this thread made me think of this woman who wanted to look like a cat:
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ora_43
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Fri, Jun 05 2015, 1:15 am
marina wrote: | sure some people regret their reassignment surgeries. So what? Some women regret their boob surgery, some regret nose jobs, some men regret being circumcised, many regret gastric bypass surgery.... so what? |
Right, but then you need an equal approach to encouraging/discouraging surgeries. Nobody is arguing that if someone feels like their body should have bigger boobs or a different-looking nose, they have a condition for which surgery is the only effective treatment. And AFAIK nobody is shutting down discussion of the possible downsides of such cosmetic surgery.
I'm not saying that "reassignment" surgery should be treated the same as a nose job. But the possibility of regret means it would be irresponsible to promote it as *the* treatment for gender dysphoria, or to not at the very least give proportionate coverage to its potential downsides.
(Also, it's much more feasible to reverse breast enhancement surgery than to re-grow a p*nis)
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HindaRochel
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Fri, Jun 05 2015, 1:31 am
ora_43 wrote: | Right, but then you need an equal approach to encouraging/discouraging surgeries. Nobody is arguing that if someone feels like their body should have bigger boobs or a different-looking nose, they have a condition for which surgery is the only effective treatment. And AFAIK nobody is shutting down discussion of the possible downsides of such cosmetic surgery.
I'm not saying that "reassignment" surgery should be treated the same as a nose job. But the possibility of regret means it would be irresponsible to promote it as *the* treatment for gender dysphoria, or to not at the very least give proportionate coverage to its potential downsides.
(Also, it's much more feasible to reverse breast enhancement surgery than to re-grow a p*nis) |
I take issue with the idea of "encourage/discourage". That isn't what it should be about.
Taking a neutral stance, ie, discounting any halachic or societal issues, and going medical alone, what should happen is a person who seeks out surgical treatment should get factual information (risks, treatment options etc.). That would include a psychiatric workup to help the person with whatever is endgame, be it transitioning or whatever.
It isn't about encouraging or discouraging.
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saw50st8
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Fri, Jun 05 2015, 4:28 am
PinkFridge wrote: | Really??? Leave aside how the world thinks but what WE should think. (This is the same philosophy as that first Rashi in the chumash: knowing that Hashem gave us E"Y is not necessarily going to change everyone else's mind but we will KNOW it. It will be imprinted on our neshamos, that's how clearly we'll know it.) We're talking about a mitzvah Hashem gave us. Don't see it through the eyes of the anti circ people. Or do if you need to take them on so you have to get into their heads. We here shouldn't be doing that. |
It's not about seeing it through the eyes of anyone. It's about supporting transgenders to do what they think is right for them, the same way we do what is right for us. I don't know enough about transgenders to understand why they feel the way they do - is it biological? Chemical? Societal? Physical? Mental Illness?
What I do know is that people who believe it's ok to alter the bodies of their children should have a little compassion for someone who feels so strongly that they need to alter their own body. (that doesn't mean supporting gender reassignment surgery, but the rhetoric is so striking)
Yes, mila is a mitzvah. That doesn't mean we can't learn from the broader scope.
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33055
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Fri, Jun 05 2015, 5:11 am
ora_43 wrote: | Right, but then you need an equal approach to encouraging/discouraging surgeries. Nobody is arguing that if someone feels like their body should have bigger boobs or a different-looking nose, they have a condition for which surgery is the only effective treatment. And AFAIK nobody is shutting down discussion of the possible downsides of such cosmetic surgery.
I'm not saying that "reassignment" surgery should be treated the same as a nose job. But the possibility of regret means it would be irresponsible to promote it as *the* treatment for gender dysphoria, or to not at the very least give proportionate coverage to its potential downsides.
(Also, it's much more feasible to reverse breast enhancement surgery than to re-grow a p*nis) |
I didn't read the whole thread so if someone made the point already, I am sorry.
Why couldn't Jenner have done his transition quietly? Why the big fanfare and making anyone who questions Jenner the bad guy? The media is way to the left of how people actually feel.
Did Jenner need to be on the cover of Vanity and Sports Illustrated in heavily photo shopped pictures? Why not show how Jenner actually looks? This whole thing is a heavily staged media campaign.
BTW I think it is disgusting of Jenner blaming his X for the divorce and saying because she is heavily controlling the marriage broke up. She is in a bad position. Either she has to accept the villain role in the break up or come out and state she didn't want to be married to a tranny. Frankly, if any DH did what Jenner did, I wouldn't blame any wife for a divorce. Jenner is despicable for the potshots be takes at the mother of his children.
Jenner is making a fortune off of the change which BTW is reversible since Jenner has a penise. Jenner had a well Choreographed publicity campaign, and could have done this without promoting the limelight and bashing Kris.
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PinkFridge
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Fri, Jun 05 2015, 6:42 am
saw50st8 wrote: | It's not about seeing it through the eyes of anyone. It's about supporting transgenders to do what they think is right for them, the same way we do what is right for us. I don't know enough about transgenders to understand why they feel the way they do - is it biological? Chemical? Societal? Physical? Mental Illness?
What I do know is that people who believe it's ok to alter the bodies of their children should have a little compassion for someone who feels so strongly that they need to alter their own body. (that doesn't mean supporting gender reassignment surgery, but the rhetoric is so striking)
Yes, mila is a mitzvah. That doesn't mean we can't learn from the broader scope. |
I do agree that compassion is in order. I do not base it on the fact that we have a mitzvah to "alter the bodies" of our young sons. I don't see the "rhetoric [as] so striking," if I'm reading that correctly.
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Barbara
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Fri, Jun 05 2015, 6:48 am
Squishy wrote: | I didn't read the whole thread so if someone made the point already, I am sorry.
Why couldn't Jenner have done his transition quietly? Why the big fanfare and making anyone who questions Jenner the bad guy? The media is way to the left of how people actually feel.
Did Jenner need to be on the cover of Vanity and Sports Illustrated in heavily photo shopped pictures? Why not show how Jenner actually looks? This whole thing is a heavily staged media campaign. |
You're seriously asking why someone who was married to a Kardashian, and who spent who knows how many years on reality TV, couldn't have transitioned quietly? Her life, for however many years, was heavily staged media. Actually, even before that, with the Olympics and Wheaties box and yadda, yadda, her whole life was heavily staged media. This is no different. It's paying for the surgery and the new wardrobe and the makeup.
Squishy wrote: | BTW I think it is disgusting of Jenner blaming his X for the divorce and saying because she is heavily controlling the marriage broke up. She is in a bad position. Either she has to accept the villain role in the break up or come out and state she didn't want to be married to a tranny. Frankly, if any DH did what Jenner did, I wouldn't blame any wife for a divorce. Jenner is despicable for the potshots be takes at the mother of his children.
Jenner is making a fortune off of the change which BTW is reversible since Jenner has a penise. Jenner had a well Choreographed publicity campaign, and could have done this without promoting the limelight and bashing Kris. |
I haven't read his comments on Kris. But I can't believe she didn't know about his being transgendered years ago. The kids seem to have known. And Jenner actually began to transition before (s)he met Kris, then stopped when Jenner fell in love with Kris. But I certainly agree that its reasonable for Kris not to want to be married to a woman.
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amother
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Fri, Jun 05 2015, 7:34 am
saw50st8 wrote: | It's not about seeing it through the eyes of anyone. It's about supporting transgenders to do what they think is right for them, the same way we do what is right for us. I don't know enough about transgenders to understand why they feel the way they do - is it biological? Chemical? Societal? Physical? Mental Illness?
What I do know is that people who believe it's ok to alter the bodies of their children should have a little compassion for someone who feels so strongly that they need to alter their own body. (that doesn't mean supporting gender reassignment surgery, but the rhetoric is so striking)
Yes, mila is a mitzvah. That doesn't mean we can't learn from the broader scope. |
I think this can be flipped the other way, too.
Funny that the shrillest voices when it comes to opposing circumcision--a practice that the American Academy of Pediatrics considers to be beneficial to the newborn, that carries risk factors some deem to be lower than risks associated with piercing ears--are also the loudest supporters of people's right to engage in self-destructive behaviors for all matters s*xual.
To be clear. As Torah Jews I agree that we should be compassionate toward individuals who are suffering. But, as I noted several pages upthread, I think that the reason compassion sometimes seems a bit muted is because people fear the radical-left agenda driving all the publicity. The same agenda, incidentally, that would love to outlaw circumcision.
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Butterfly
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Fri, Jun 05 2015, 7:46 am
In reference to the thread title;
Will Humans want to alter their bodies to become 4 legged?
Don't know about the others, but I would gladly alter mine as long as it comes with wings attached!!
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HindaRochel
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Fri, Jun 05 2015, 7:49 am
amother wrote: | I think this can be flipped the other way, too.
Funny that the shrillest voices when it comes to opposing circumcision--a practice that the American Academy of Pediatrics considers to be beneficial to the newborn, that carries risk factors some deem to be lower than risks associated with piercing ears--are also the loudest supporters of people's right to engage in self-destructive behaviors for all matters s*xual.
To be clear. As Torah Jews I agree that we should be compassionate toward individuals who are suffering. But, as I noted several pages upthread, I think that the reason compassion sometimes seems a bit muted is because people fear the radical-left agenda driving all the publicity. The same agenda, incidentally, that would love to outlaw circumcision. |
We as Jews make a decision to alter our children's bodies because we believe in G-d and trust that it is the right thing to do. Save on a spiritual level (the soul says yes) there is no informed consent on the part of the child.
We ask to be respected for our religious beliefs. Jenner asks to be respected for a deeply emotional decision.
I would love to discuss, actually discuss, the halachic implications, if there is room for surgical treatment, if not what beyond failed JONAH like treatment could be implemented.
Unfortunately I doubt if we can have such discussions, at least here, and possibly in most places.
What is the cause? Is it "preventable" and if so how? Is it detectable at an early age? Where is it more/less prevalent? What treatments are workable?
But like I said, not likely to get a real discussion which aims at finding a solution rather than justifying an already accepted position.
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saw50st8
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Fri, Jun 05 2015, 7:50 am
PinkFridge wrote: | I do agree that compassion is in order. I do not base it on the fact that we have a mitzvah to "alter the bodies" of our young sons. I don't see the "rhetoric [as] so striking," if I'm reading that correctly. |
The rhetoric of what the anti-circ movement uses against us vs the rhetoric people here are using against transgendered people who have surgery
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HindaRochel
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Fri, Jun 05 2015, 7:51 am
Butterfly wrote: | In reference to the thread title;
Will Humans want to alter their bodies to become 4 legged?
Don't know about the others, but I would gladly alter mine as long as it comes with wings attached!! |
Well I am endeavoring to become a dragon, but I want shape-shifting abilities so it isn't so pashut.
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amother
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Fri, Jun 05 2015, 8:09 am
Somehow even though Im an extremely open minded person, this issue bothers me because its sort of like saying
"G-d, you messed up".
Please dont compare this to an illness or a deformity that people operate for. Imho, G-d knows which Zex to create each human. Imho its a revolt to G-d's wishes.
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HindaRochel
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Fri, Jun 05 2015, 8:13 am
amother wrote: | Somehow even though Im an extremely open minded person, this issue bothers me because its sort of like saying
"G-d, you messed up".
Please dont compare this to an illness or a deformity that people operate for. Imho, G-d knows which Zex to create each human. Imho its a revolt to G-d's wishes. |
Well what about people who were born with deformities or challenges? Maybe G-d wanted the person to have a cleft palate and it is a revolt against G-d to fix it?
Why do you differentiate?
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ora_43
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Fri, Jun 05 2015, 8:18 am
HindaRochel wrote: | I take issue with the idea of "encourage/discourage". That isn't what it should be about.
Taking a neutral stance, ie, discounting any halachic or societal issues, and going medical alone, what should happen is a person who seeks out surgical treatment should get factual information (risks, treatment options etc.). That would include a psychiatric workup to help the person with whatever is endgame, be it transitioning or whatever.
It isn't about encouraging or discouraging. |
A responsible doctor will always encourage patients to undergo life-saving treatments, and discourage unnecessary surgery. Doctors aren't at all required to take a neutral stance toward treatment. Of course they shouldn't bully, and they can never force treatment.
Or are you saying "reassignment" surgery is nothing more than a matter of personal preference like cosmetic surgeries? Because that was basically my point, that if the two have similar risks, they should be treated as similarly neutral.
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