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Open Minded to less frum... and more??
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  urban gypsy  




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 22 2019, 7:58 am
cbsp wrote:
Didn't know it's halachically permitted to despise a fellow Jew.


WHAT?!?!? Not what I was saying at all! I was just saying that it's dishonest to say that something is treif when it isn't. Conflating halacha with chumra leads people into a bad place.

If you're offended on behalf of Ben Shapiro, then I will modify my post to say, "vehemently disagree with and generally dislike"
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  allthingsblue  




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 22 2019, 8:00 am
urban gypsy wrote:
To paraphrase Ben Shapiro, whom I despise, feelings are not halacha


If you wish to nitpick my words, see my edited post.

And I agree that your wording about a fellow Jew is harsh. I'll nitpick now: "ben Shapiro, whose political views I despise..."
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  urban gypsy  




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 22 2019, 8:02 am
allthingsblue wrote:
If you wish to nitpick my words, see my edited post.

And I agree that your wording about a fellow Jew is harsh. I'll nitpick now: "ben Shapiro, whose political views I despise..."


Okay. I feel like this was a productive exchange Hug
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  Genius




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 22 2019, 8:02 am
urban gypsy wrote:
WHAT?!?!? Not what I was saying at all! I was just saying that it's dishonest to say that something is treif when it isn't. Conflating halacha with chumra leads people into a bad place.

If you're offended on behalf of Ben Shapiro, then I will modify my post to say, "vehemently disagree with and generally dislike"

The poor guy didn't say it's treif (maybe he didn't think it either.) He just didn't eat there
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  allthingsblue




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 22 2019, 8:04 am
urban gypsy wrote:
Okay. I feel like this was a productive exchange Hug


Hug Smile
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  cbsp  




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 22 2019, 8:05 am
urban gypsy wrote:
WHAT?!?!? Not what I was saying at all! I was just saying that it's dishonest to say that something is treif when it isn't. Conflating halacha with chumra leads people into a bad place.

If you're offended on behalf of Ben Shapiro, then I will modify my post to say, "vehemently disagree with and generally dislike"


You did say you despise him. Your words. (that's what I quoted, I'm not sure why you were confused as to my intent but I went back to bold it)

In a thread where you're attempting to make the point that Ahavas Yisroel trumps all that's not strict halachah cuz G_D forbid someone should actually maintain their standards if someone else gets offended by it.

Don't know if "generally dislike" is any better from a halachic perspective. I'd like to see the source for that.
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  urban gypsy  




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 22 2019, 8:11 am
cbsp wrote:
You did say you despise him. Your words. (that's what I quoted, I'm not sure why you were confused as to my intent but I went back to bold it)

In a thread where you're attempting to make the point that Ahavas Yisroel trumps all that's not strict halachah cuz G_D forbid someone should actually maintain their standards if someone else gets offended by it.

Don't know if "generally dislike" is any better from a halachic perspective. I'd like to see the source for that.


I'm stating an honest fact, but I take your point that my ahavas yisroel is probably lacking and a good area for me to work on in the future.

However, I'm NOT making the point that ahavas yisroel trumps all at all, but that honesty does, which was not contradicted by my post. This hypothetical man can eat or not eat whatever he likes, but for the sake of himself and his family, it would be very beneficial for him to get clarity on what is a custom and what is truly treif, meaning that the vessels it touches would require kashering... like the clickbait articles say, "The answer may truly surprise you!"
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  cbsp




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 22 2019, 9:37 am
urban gypsy wrote:
I'm stating an honest fact, but I take your point that my ahavas yisroel is probably lacking and a good area for me to work on in the future.



I appreciate your honesty. I should have pm'ed you rather than say anything publicly. I apologize for that. Would you like me to edit my posts?
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  urban gypsy




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 22 2019, 9:39 am
cbsp wrote:
I appreciate your honesty. I should have pm'ed you rather than say anything publicly. I apologize for that. Would you like me to edit my posts?


Not at all!!! Please leave them up. I welcome the tochacha. Hug
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amother
Ginger


 

Post Mon, Jul 22 2019, 2:24 pm
amother [ Linen ] wrote:
Being open minded means allowing yourself the opportunity to challenge your preconceived ideas on things.

Like - I've heard that restaurant across the street with the other hechsher isn't all that great, but I'll be open-minded and we'll eat there.

Or I really think that Jews should stay Jewish - but I'll be open to the possibility that I'm wrong - and celebrate with my friend who seems to have found some happiness.


Um, this means being so open minded that your brains fall out (it's an expression - I'm not talking about your brains)
It's like saying "oh, I am super open minded to the idea of people who don't keep Shabbos so I think I should stop keeping Shabbos".
Being open minded does not mean that the other person is right and you should follow in their ways.
And you are open to the possibility that you are wrong in the fact that Jews should stay Jewish???
Hashem Yerachaim!
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amother
  Lavender  


 

Post Mon, Jul 22 2019, 3:32 pm
Flip Flops wrote:
We hear it so much today. Being open minded to Jews on all levels, accepting of those who have different standards than us... Yet somehow I feel like people only act this way toward those who are less frum than them.
The many people out there who go around saying, "I'm so open minded" only use this in reference to those who are less frum and have lower standards, not more frum. These same "open minded" people are so quick to scorn, put down or make fun of those who are more frum or have higher standards.
It's like, G-d forbid to make a condescending remark about your more modern cousin, but feel free to make fun of your yeshivish neighbor. Why??


I’ll tell you exactly why. Because that’s their way of justifying their own sinful lives by making fun of people they deem “too” frum. This way they talk it into themselves (and try to talk it into others) that their sins are fine and that the frum ones are the ones with “the problem.” It’s caused by their inner guilt. Just look at all the threads on here where women justify their lack of tzniut with all kinds of rationalizations.,,l
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amother
  Lavender  


 

Post Mon, Jul 22 2019, 3:34 pm
thunderstorm wrote:
To be very honest, I personally have a hard time being open minded towards people with “higher standards” when they don’t come across as authentic and sincere in what they are doing. Sometimes it’s all a show. But if you are real and live on a higher standard than me and you practice what you preach , I actually admire you greatly.


Who are you to judge if they’re sincere or “just a show.” That’s your opinion, based on your biases.
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amother
  Lavender  


 

Post Mon, Jul 22 2019, 3:35 pm
amother [ Cerulean ] wrote:
The answer lies in the way you phrased the question. You automatically assume that a certain lifestyle is more or less frum than another. What if you could appreciate difference without assuming a hierarchy?


If it’s a clear case of sinning or not sinning, we’re not supposed to appreciate it or condone it.
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amother
  Lavender  


 

Post Mon, Jul 22 2019, 3:42 pm
SixOfWands wrote:
He didn't need to say a word. He said it loud and clear by sitting there and only sipping water, making perfectly clear that he didn't consider the food to be kosher.

I wonder if he asked his rav about humiliating a relative in that way. Because yes, its humiliating to have someone at the table practically shouting YOU'RE EATING TREYF. Did he consider ordering a salad, no dressing, no onions, which should be fine whatever the hecksher.


Clearly you’re not very knowledgeable about all the ins and outs of kashrut. Not any salad is “fine whatever the hecksher!” Some agencies don’t check the lettuce and other vegetables. Please refrain from handing out this kind of misinformation when others might believe you and assume you know what you’re saying, and could go eat “any salad “ which you deemed ok.
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amother
  Lavender  


 

Post Mon, Jul 22 2019, 3:45 pm
urban gypsy wrote:
Seriously. I don't know how to explain this politely but.... checking with a lightbox is a good idea, but clean unchecked vegetables are not treif. And the fact that kosher restaurants wash vegetables with dish soap is so disgusting and I'd rather just not think about that.


You’re very wrong, unchecked vegetables are not ok! I went to a class where the person gave a shiur just about how to check vegetables! Please stop giving out incorrect info so you won’t misguide Anyone here
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amother
  Lavender  


 

Post Mon, Jul 22 2019, 3:46 pm
urban gypsy wrote:
Actually YOU are the one who wrote, "vegetables and herbs require washing with soap or other wash, and/ or checking by a special or natural light"

If you wanted to avoid being "judgy" then you could have said, "CRC guidelines are as follows for those who hold by them"


There’s nothing wrong with how she worded it, you’re reacting too strongly for some reason
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amother
  Lavender  


 

Post Mon, Jul 22 2019, 3:48 pm
urban gypsy wrote:
I think it makes a big difference whether the restaurant has a kosher certification or not. If it's MacDonald's, then the relatives are being a bit unreasonable expecting the frum person to eat there. If it's a kosher restaurant with a hashgacha he doesn't hold by, surely he can choose something acceptable to eat, even if it's fruit or something


Wrong. Many people if they don’t hold from a certain questionable hashgacha will rightfully not trust anything there.
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amother
  Lavender  


 

Post Mon, Jul 22 2019, 3:49 pm
urban gypsy wrote:
More like a Freudian slip but ok....
That's the whole point of the thread!
Yes it's okay to uphold your standards, no it's not okay to believe that other people are eating treif when they aren't
In 12th grade a very frum friend offered the daughter of the Rav teaching the class a chalav stam cookie and his daughter accidentally said "that's not kosher for me" without thinking
HE LAID INTO HER LIKE YOU WOULD NOT BELIEVE in front of everyone and made it very clear that kind of attitude is NOT OK and obviously he and his family kept Chalav Yisrael


And guess what! LAYING INTO HER LIKE YOU WOULD NOT BELEIVE is a terrible aveira akin to murder!
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amother
  Lavender  


 

Post Mon, Jul 22 2019, 3:51 pm
urban gypsy wrote:
Unless it's onions or garlic or lemons, it's cold so it's fine


Paskening like you’re doing is very dangerous! No it’s not fine just because it’s cold,
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  SixOfWands  




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 22 2019, 3:53 pm
allthingsblue wrote:
If the potato was cooked in an oven that potentially cooked meat that wasn't his standard, or had spices that weren't his standard, then no he couldn't eat it.
And like someone previously pointed out- how would the relative have liked it if he specified his request for "a completely unspiced potato, double wrapped in foil"? I doubt she would have appreciated it one iota more.


Interesting.

Someone -- presumably not you -- pointed out that they were always careful to purchase foods with a hecksher acceptable to their guests, even if they use other heckshers. But what you're saying is that would not be acceptable. If the oven had been used to cook something with a hecksher that the guest didn't use, then the entire kitchen would not be acceptable, and nothing -- not a salad, not a baked potato, not a green bean, not rice -- could be eaten.
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