I choose my teens over my religion!

freidasima

Sun, Dec 23 2012, 7:01 am

Chani no one ever said it was Din (Halocho). But what we did say is that it is a widespread across the board (eida) minhog to have special shabbos clothes. Special NICE shabbos clothes. I agree that comfort is important and that's why I wear a shabbos robe, but guess what? I don't OWN tailored clothes. All my clothing flows so there is really little difference between a shabbos robe and a gown unless it is a totally A line shabbos robe with no waist (and b"h I have a waist, even a nice small one).

I think we are going around in circles here but basically understanding each other. Even those who want to be really comfortable, like Shosh writes, have a special nice (not necessarily super fancy) garment or lounging garment (shabbos robe) which is not worn except for shabbos and yuntif. This is very different than what some of the posters seem to infer, that they come to the shabbos table in their everyday sleeping pyjamas ("trainings"). One doesn't have to dress as if to a fancy wedding but it really is customary to wear something special, especially nice, different and set aside for shabbos, worn only "likoved shabbos". Even those who say that some of their children refuse to, there is a difference between bedieved - those saying "we aren't happy with it but we decided (for whatever reason) to let it slide", and those saying "we think it's perfectly ok to come to the shabbos table milechaschila wearing weekday pjs and trainings and we do it as well".

Table, in the home I grew up in, we dressed on shabbos just like for a simcha. In those days no one except the bride and her mother wore a gown to a simcha, everyone else just wore their nicest dresses and shoes. My mother always came to the table with her best sheitl (in those days you did it in the salon always, they were the old fashioned kind and no one could do it at home), in earrings, heels, stockings etc. Today with girls wearing gowns and the like that is saved for a wedding, but definitely not weekday clothing. Ever.

freidasima

Sun, Dec 23 2012, 7:15 am

Dr. Mom a shabbat robe is NOT a long velvet bathrobe. Basically it is a dress, either with a zip up the front but more often up the back, with a waist, however it is made in polyester velvet which is washable. It has embellishments (gold trim, embrodered flowers, velvet flowers which are part of the design (large that stand out like a corsage). It sometimes has other features and would never be mistaken for a "stam" velvet robe.

33055

Sun, Dec 23 2012, 7:49 am

freidasima wrote:

lol Chani!
Let's try.
The thing I hate about shabbos robes is that they are all BLACK!
I actually made a few for myself as I sew my own clothes as well, and I made them in nice dark colors. a deep maroon, one in a deep turquoise, and they are such a nice change from the black.

The last couple of years my Shabbos robes have been blue, maroon, purple, gold as well as black. I bought these in robe stores.

busybuthappy

Sun, Dec 23 2012, 8:22 am

Fs, there is a concept in yiddishkeit that you dont worry incessantly about every little thing that might happen, if it is not the natural order of things, we do not sit and obsess over it all day. For example, do u drive in a car or do u walk everywhere be cause there is a slight chance that the car might crash . U probably use a car and pray for the best. Same with raising kids, u bring them up with proper jewish values and u pray for the best. It is overly obsessive to talk about every possible scenario. There is also a mystical jewish concept that if u constantly worry about something that is not natural to always think about, then u can bring that tzarah upon urself. You are supposed to half faith in g-d . Back, to my ex ample with the car, now if ur child is reckless driver, it is time to sit them down and have a talk with them, and u can worry and even tell them that u will ppunish them and take away the car I they dont promise to be more careful. Same with yiddishke8t, if ur child begins to rebel and start to go otd, and hang out with non jews in innapropriate ways , then u can start worrying and it is time to start talking abbout what will happen if they intermarry. It is definitely not the correct time to start talking about it when they are three and dont even know what intermarry means.

PinkFridge

Sun, Dec 23 2012, 9:59 am

chani8 wrote:

Do you think we can drag this thread to 20 pages? LOL

Shobbos robes:

http://www.therobecollection.c.....robes

Here's my contribution:

Do we have a moral obligation to look - and smell - as good as we can manage? In one view, this could be a Kantian duty to the self, but in another it could be part of our duty not to offend those around us - one of those items of good social manners that strayed into the scope of morality proper. Of course, that had all sorts of ramifications. What about wearing clothes that offended other people - clothes that revealed bad colour coordination, for example? Was that wrong? Surely not, although wearing scanty clothing in sensitive settings was another matter. When important women went to see the Pope, they dressed conservatively out of respect for... for what? Now it became even more complicated: the following of a dress code that treated women that some did not condone. So had the Pope any right, Isabel wondered, to expect women to dress in a particular way when they called on him? That raised the question of whether the hosts could dictate the dress of their guests - and they could, Isabel considered, because people were always telling their invitees what wear: [/I]black tie, casual-smart and all the rest of the signals were everyday examples of precisely that. So, t he Pope had the right, if he wished, to expect a certain sort of dress, on the part of his visitors. And so did everybody else, it seemed. She smiled; that sorted that out.

(From The Uncommon Appeal of Clouds; no restrictions on the copyright page re quoting an excerpt)

Last edited by PinkFridge on Sun, Dec 23 2012, 10:08 am; edited 1 time in total

freidasima

Sun, Dec 23 2012, 10:38 am

Pink, I read slowly as I'm tired and when I got to the Pope I really couldn't figure what he was doing at a shabbos table. Took me a minute to get to the end lol!

Busy...when one of the biggest and most common issues plaguing the Jewish world today is intermarriage, to speak to your children about it is not "obsessing over every little thing that happened". Same BTW in my book goes for teen pregnancy. In my profession one learns that it happens all too often to keep mum on that topic.

There are a few more things that one should at least verbally practice with one's family that I don't consider worrying incessantly about things that will probably not happen (what you are talking about is OCD, not yiddishkeit). What to do in case of fire, what to save if you have to run from the house (we just went through that with the last sirens and running to the shelter). What to do (for kids) if they find out that both parents have been killed in other words who to turn to, where to go, what papers they need etc.

To you that might sound outree, I don't know what country you live in, but here in EY it is all too real.

I also don't hold from "mystical Jewish concepts". Not our kind of thing in our hashkofo.

In our hashkofo one talks about things long before they become an issue or even a possibility just to make sure that they don't become an issue or even a possibility. Particularly if they are a serious or big issue in the world today.

freidasima

Sun, Dec 23 2012, 10:46 am

Chani the mumus are nice but they are NOT shabbosdig in my book. Also most of the sleeves are too short or too open and revealing for me.

And more important, I am NOT a plus size. Very much NOT a plus size.

Now here is a possibility that isn't black, although it's not really fitted and the neckline may be a drop open but from what I see it covers the collarbones:

http://www.shopnational.com/p/.....unger

The sleeve has to be altered to be a bit tighter so that when one pick's up one's arm it doesn't fall back. But the trim makes it nicer than a robe per se.

Although my shabbos robes are a lot more elegant usually.

PinkFridge

Sun, Dec 23 2012, 11:01 am

freidasima wrote:

J'accuse! Freidasima wears Shabbos robes at the table!
No, I know you never said that.

I think that if kids perceive their parents as consistent and thought out, they can handle being given standards. If they're in too much pain to be able to meet them, because that's often where it's coming from, deep down they'll probably know that their parents are doing their best and there will be some level of respect. How a parent chooses to deal with it varies. I know that personally I would be flexible and pliant. I think. Not having been there. Were I to be there, I think I can safely say I'd get help and support so that whatever I would do, I could be at peace with.

chani8

Sun, Dec 23 2012, 11:22 am

freidasima wrote:

That was a nice example, FS. I posted those examples even though they were plus, because I'm sure there are similar ones in smaller sizes. Personally, I hate the material of the charedi shobbos robes, the polyester or velour that almost always cling to the tushy and thighs. I prefer loose, flowing cotton and bright colors, or earthy browns. Also, FTR, I would wear an undershirt that covers my elbows and solves any neckline issues.

But that said, I would never go out in public in my moo-moo (or whatever you want to call it), so according to your earlier posts, it would be as if I'm not dressed acceptable if I wouldn't want to go out in public in those clothes. And even, your shobbos robe might work on your slender body, but for most women, they cling and are not tznius, but women wear them for shobbos and go out in them, all the time. So if a kid wants to come to the table in nice sweats that he will later go to sleep in, how is that any different? Shouldn't the boys have a comfy alternative, too?

busybuthappy

Sun, Dec 23 2012, 12:09 pm

"when one of the biggest and most common issues plaguing the Jewish world today is intermarriage,"

FS- this is the the biggest and most common issue among NONFRUM jews, where intermarriage is I believe 50%-80%. It is not a big issue amongst frum jews. even children who go otd, usually do not intermarry. if you do not believe in mystical concepts that is fine, I do not really either, but just in case I try not to obsessively worry, which is my tendency in many cases. I am a very overprotective mother, but I guess this method seems overly extreme to me. Bringing up your children with proper jewish values, and lots of love should be enough to stop them from intermarrying. however, as I said before, if they are showing signs of going off the derech u can start talking to them .

Regarding what to do in case of fire, etc.. is very important, but does not have to be talked about all the time, and in any case, a fire is much more likely then intermarrying in my opinion.

the thought that my child would intermarry would never enter my brain, and is therefore much less likely to enter their brain.

that being said, maybe you come from a very different background then me, and people are intermarrying all the time, and that's why u worry about it. or maybe you've had a bad experience.

in any case, I really think it's not something that should be brought up until the child is at least 14 or 15. I think it is asking for trouble. for example, you don't tell your five your old u better not jump off the roof over and over again, because then the idea is in their head, and they might one day decide to do something rebellious, they think to themselves, what does mommy really not want me to do? jump off the roof! great that's what I'll do!

freidasima

Sun, Dec 23 2012, 12:46 pm

Amother above, I am sorry that you get depressed at all. Therapy helps, believe me.

Busy, why exaggerate! Who says that one talks about it "all the time"? And you are naive to think that intermarriage doesn't happen in the frum world, it does. First a kid goes OTD and then he/she intermarries. Even here in EY. Unfortunately. As we now have enough non jews due to the Russian aliyah, to go around. Less with arabs but that, too, happens. Just speak to the Yad Le'Achim (Pe'eilim) wonderful people, they really do avodas kodesh and they can give you the statistics.

Your phrasing is a bit, let's say, outlandish. Especially if you compare jumping off the roof to intermarriage. Children don't see as a norm that people jump off the roof on a daily basis. Do you have children? Do you have teenagers? My guess is that you don't and are talking theoretically. Maybe wait a bit and see what it is like and then you can see how naive you sound.

Children learn a lot about intermarriage before age 15 unless they live maybe in Meah She'arim. Just have on Radio Kol Chai and every fifth advertisement is "Achmed ben Sarah" and the Yad Leachim people saving Jewish girls from arab villages where they were living with their arab husband for years and saving their children. It's all over the place here, on the frum radio stations and in flyers that come in the shabbos dapei parashat hashavua that the kids see in shul. So they ask and you explain, and yes, as soon as they can read they reach for those dapim, they are colorful and attractive and they are in the SHUL for heaven's sake so it is totally muttar.

Maybe you live in a very sheltered society or you are also the kind who only tells your daughters about what relations are the month or so before she gets married and she never learns it in biology if you think to only mention intermarriage for the first time at age 15.

freidasima

Sun, Dec 23 2012, 12:53 pm

Chani the shabbos robes that I know of that the Israeli women (as opposed to the Americans) wear are made of totally non cling fabrics. No tricot or nylons. Only very harsh cotton polyesters which couldn't cling if you paid them to!

As for boys having a comfortable alternative, their clothing in the first place is such that it isn't uncomfortable. What is uncomfortable about a loose shirt and a pair of normal pants? It's not like women who are wearing clothing with zips and darts and high necklines etc. While a man can wear a loose unfitted (read: not "slim fit") white shirt on shabbos tucked into his pants and look bakoved, there is no way that a woman can wear a loose, unfitted blouse tucked into her skirt like that and not look like she is falling all over the place. What can you do, women have different chests and waists than men!

I also would never go to sleep in a robe in general and certainly not in a shabbos robe! Why would anyone ever go to sleep in a high necked zip up the back garment with a waist? So it's nowhere near the same as wearing a nice pair of sweats.

Another point. I assume when talking about sweats as a norm those posters are also talking about girls wearing sweats. Ahum..does that mean that you are talking about girls coming to the shabbos table in a pair of pants?!