I choose my teens over my religion!

chani8

Mon, Dec 17 2012, 7:03 am

This is a spinoff from a thread for parents of OTD kids. I blurted this out and someone mentioned we should start another thread on this topic:

Quote:

Personally, I don't care anymore about religion. I want my kids. I choose them over my beliefs. Because, it was for them that I became religious, to give them a community and what I thought was a pure life. If they are rejecting it, it must not be all that I thought it was, at least for them as individuals. I just think that kids should know that we care more about them than our religion.

To expound a little on what I meant, it seems that frum parents get stuck worrying about how religious our children are, and whether they reflect our values, but lose sight of who their children are as people. Sometimes we never even got to know them very well in the first place, especially those of us with large families (perhaps that's a subject for another thread!), and only monitor how well they represent our family. Are they dressed right, do they have the right friends, the right hair cuts, shoes, schools.

On top of that, the chinuch system is all about controlling the kids, and getting the parents to control the kids, and schools controlling the parents. But once kids hit the teenage years, they are not so easy to control. All of a sudden they have strong opinions and don't like to be told what to wear and how to be. When they challenge the rules, we panic and punish, cajole, manipulate, and hopefully get them to do what we know our society expects of them, of us.

If we would just stop, step back, and see that our children are more important than our religion, I think we'd find less kids going OTD. Ask most mothers of OTD kids, who still have a relationship with their kids, and I think you would see, that the reason they haven't lost their kids completely from their lives, is because they gave up on their religious expectations and just decided to love their child, no religious strings attached.

Culturedpearls

Mon, Dec 17 2012, 7:20 am

I think you're confusing Yiddishkeit with societal conformity.
I'm a big believer in "chinuch lana'ar al pi darko". I try to connect to each child as an individual & develop each ones particular talents or interests.
My kids are all conformists both at home & socially. Yet every child is very different & each has unique interests & hobbies.
I think very insular societies where any individuality is frowned upon stifle many a creative soul & these kids confuse Yiddishkeit with rigidity & conformity.
This is not "al pi darko".
Yiddishkeit is not defined by the length of your peyos or the color of your shirt. Externals do matter but they are not Yiddishkeit.
Just my musings Smile

superjew

Mon, Dec 17 2012, 7:21 am

I completly agree with getting to know & love your kids/teens for who they are. However, my religion is important to me. I try to bring them up with the same torah values , however I wouldn't force something 'I' believe in, onto them. But I'd NEVER change myself for them. I'd like to live by example. And the first example I'd want to teach/show is that one should never change themselves for others.
Accepting one another as individuals is important both parents to children & children to parents too.

Karnash

Mon, Dec 17 2012, 7:29 am

Very insightful chani8 and spoken like a wise loving mother. But - I don't think you're choosing your kids over your religion, but as you wrote - your children over your "religious expectations of them"

I hope you chose to be dati for yourself and not only your family.
We give our children everything we have to give - physically, emotionally and intellectually and then at a certain stage we just have to let them fly - hoping they will put all we have invested in them to good use.
At some point they have to make their own choices and we have to accept them and continue loving and supporting them - even if we wish they had chosen differently.
Everyone has their own flight plan and if they come from a strong healthy nest they'll eventually find the right way home.

TranquilityAndPeace

Mon, Dec 17 2012, 7:40 am

What does that mean 'my children are more important than my religion'? To me, it sounds like you care about your kids in This World at the exclusion of caring about their infinite state of being in the Next World.

I agree that controlling and forcing kids to do things often backfires when kids are teens. In my understanding, that is not chinuch.

"Chanoch l'na'ar al pi darko, gam ki yazkin lo yassur...." Educate each child unto his own way, so that when he gets older, he'll stick with the program.... Obviously, forcing kids to conform in a way that they don't want to will lead to many kids abandoning that program when they are old enough to make their own choices.

The OTD kids I know who returned had parents that loved them deeply enough to maintain a relationship with them during the OTD years. It was always done with the hope and prayer that the kid would return. It wasn't done with the thought that religion no longer matters.

I know of a rabbi whose OTD son didn't want to come home for Shabbos since he smoked, and didn't want to embarrass his parents by smoking outside their home on Shabbos. The rabbi built a semi-enclosed place under the back porch for his son to smoke there on Shabbos! The son spent many Shabboses smoking at his parents' home for many years until he ultimately became shomer Shabbos. These parents put their relationship with their son ahead of the halachah in this example, so that the boy would stay in contact with them and also return, not because they stopped valuing their religion.

amother

Mon, Dec 17 2012, 8:44 am

This is a bit beyond teenagers but: My brother has a son who married a non-Jews. The son was raised in a shomer shabbos home, very relaxed, went to an MO day school through 12th grade.

My brother is devastated and is now having a hard time with religion because he feels religion is coming between him and his son. He can't reconcile it.

Re my own OTD teenager, it is very painful to see one's deeply held convictions rejected by my kid. I try hard to not take it as a personal rejection but I don't really succeed. On the other hand, of course I still love my child. I tried to achieve a minimal desired standard of behavior under the heading of "house rules" and "respect for your parents" but that got me nowhere fast.

T&P, yes, I care more about my children and my relationship with them in this world than what will be in the next world. I live very much in the here and now; that's pressure enough with difficult kids. I personally observe mitzvas because I believe it's what Hashem wants me to do but I don't spend time being concerned about the next world.

Sometimes OTD is about rebellion. But not always. Sometimes it's about the temptations of a not-many-rules lifestyle. Sometimes it is an intellectual decision that Torah is not the truth (not my opinion). These people will not return to shmirat mitzvot but they will still be our children.

PinkFridge

Mon, Dec 17 2012, 8:52 am

I didn't follow the other thread, and maybe I'm naive but I'm with those who say that I wouldn't choose my form of religious observance over my kids. Instead of my way or the highway I'd try to see if there was some other community, etc. that worked for them and I would hope I'd be astute enough to pick up on things early enough before it got to the breaking point.

Isramom8

Mon, Dec 17 2012, 9:55 am

This is very confused and convoluted thinking. Religion and kids go together. Children are a responsibility Hashem gives us. I view my role as a mother as one of supporting my kids on whatever level they require.

If a child isn't holding by dressing according to the norms of the community I choose to identify with, I won't fight that to the point that it will seriously anger my child. So wear sweat pants to the bris, and I'm happy to see that you joined the family there. Not holding by sitting at the Shabbos table? Eat cereal whenever you're ready, and it's nice to see you home for Shabbos. Etcetera.

This has nothing to do with lowering my standards of avodas Hashem. It's all integrated.

Merrymom

Mon, Dec 17 2012, 10:08 am

Just because kids are rebelling against religion does not mean they don't believe in it. They're just testing the waters usually, most kids will come back unless there's a real miserable back story somewhere. For a parent to suddenly act like the child and give up religion as well would probably be doubly frightening to the teen. They need people who have values, who believe in a world that they don't fully believe in just yet. They need us to turn to, to speak with those who have an unshakeable faith. Someone who chooses their teen over the religion really isn't choosing the teen at all.

Liba

Mon, Dec 17 2012, 10:27 am

If your child chose a life of crime chv"sh would you join them as well? Would you also rob banks so you could spend your lives together in jail?

I don't understand how this is good parenting.

It doesn't sound like Hashem factors into your life at all, not into why you were acting religious or why you would drop religion.

If your children are also lacking a relationship with Hashem it makes sense that they feel no kesher to Judaism. They never really had it to begin with.

CatLady

Mon, Dec 17 2012, 11:16 am

Funny thing about kids - they grow up into actual people with minds of their own. What I got from Chani was that she wouldn't throw away her relationships with her kids because they had chosen a different level of observance (even if the level was 1%).

OTOH, I wouldn't condone my kid showing up at a bris in sweatpants, unless it was teamed up with a walkathon. At the very least, take 2 minutes and put on clean, unripped jeans and a nice t-shirt, because the act of getting together with family and friends is special enough to warrant even the slightest dressing up.

Isramom8

Mon, Dec 17 2012, 11:29 am

CatLady wrote:

And if he or she will come only in sweatpants? Would you make your child feel that you'd prefer him or her not showing up?

CatLady

Mon, Dec 17 2012, 11:50 am

My family's gender-inclusive "fashion rule" has always been that sweatpants are for the gym, for changing into when you come home, or layered over heavy tights in extreme winter weather (We're Canadian and non-skiers/snowboarders, so nobody in my family has snowpants). I wouldn't wear them out in public, nor would I wear any of my colelction of wacky PJ bottoms. Options are: Yoga pants, track pants, cargo pants, jeans, jeggings, meggings - anything but sweat pants!

If a family member categorically refused any of the other pant options and said they'd boycott the event, they certainly can wear what they'd like. I'm a "pick your battles" mom, and actually non-confrontational by nature. But a well-placed reference to not wanting to dress like George Costanza has saved my DS from several fashion don'ts.