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PinkFridge

Thu, Jun 02 2011, 10:31 pm

sharonlangert wrote:

I never ever said it represents Lakewood. All I said was that I am from Lakewood and I am an accepted part of the community. You are right, the majority of Lakewood dresses much more modestly and I never ever intended to market my blog for Lakewood or any yeshivish community. It was more for the younger generation and more disallusioned people of today who feel they are never good enough so why even try. I have many many young girls look up to me as a role model of someone who can balance being frum, being busy with chesed in the community, and also looking stylish. There IS a market for this and people are going to have to start realizing we cannot just throw people away because they don't dress exactly how you do. When I was growing up in Baltimore the poskim and the teachers in Bais Yaakov told us an entirely different set of halochos than we impose on our children today. Also I will not name my rav but he is not one of the poskim you mentioned. Ase L'cha Rav...I have my Rav and he is not the same as yours. Let us all learn to love and accept each other it is sinaas chinum that is destroying us not an inch on a skirt!!

OK, my sister remembers being told in the seventies that skirts needed to go to the crack of the back of the knee. I believe that was horaas shaa. I was told a few years later that skirts needed to come below the knee and that slits were ok IF and only if they started below the knee, because wherever the slit began basically meant that the skirt was that short. I don't remember who told us the latter, but I do know who said the former.

I really feel bad for my contributions. I knew this would become a Lakewood referendum. I come from an oot city that was a very, very big tent type. Halevai things would stay the same. I think it's incredible that we have the freedom to explore "upgrading" (I don't like the term) our Yiddishkeit, etc. but this has resulted in serious fragmenting.

The problem is, Lakewood is sui generis. I don't like talking about Lakewood. I don't want to say anything that will cause any sort of lashon hara or avak lashon hara, true or imagined, to be said. I kind of feel that loshon hara or bashing about Lakewood is almost like doing that on E"Y; I really think there's a similar mandate of "ureh b'tuv Yerushalayim" on Lakewood over and above the good old fashioned "you can't say l.h. about any group or city" ala Guard Your Tongue which I try to keep up with. It's complicated, Lakewood is, and I'm sure you know this as much as and probably more than most people. So if you feel you're accomplishing, keep up the good work, but do have a rebbetzin who has your back for reality checks, not so everyone can see her name as a hechsher, but for your own sake.

One last thing that I've said elsewhere but you don't know me yet: once I was coming back from a tznius video with my teenage daughters and I specifically brought up a neighbor. We all agreed that she was a very tzniusdik woman. She doesn't cover her hair, she wears short sleeves and pants, but she so completely doesn't radiate anything but simplicity and genuineness. I thought it was important to underscore how tznius is more than the details. But, as the saying goes, G-d IS in the details. I don't know about you, but I live in a BY world where the basics are collarbones, elbows, knees and feet. I try my best to walk the walk to model for my kids. It is VERY hard for them if older women (and young women too) who are from their same world can't sit down with their knees covered. (Personally, I noticed I was having issues with my elbows, I have lots of three quarter sleeves that ride up, even with buttons. That's why Hashem gave someone the chochma to create Sleevies. I try to be consistent. Sometimes Twisted Evil

)

Again, chas v'shalom that any Jew should ever feel disenfranchised. We live in a generation where the mandate is yemin mekareves, we have to constantly be on the lookout for ways to endorse our fellow Jews and build people up. I salute your doing this, and hope your endeavors are and continue to be constructive.

sharonlangert

Thu, Jun 02 2011, 11:29 pm

PinkFridge thank you. You seem highly intelligent and well thought out and I appreciate your input. There are many many wonderful things about Lakewood and the sincere people here are truly devoting their lives to Torah and trying to protect their families from outside influences. But you are correct that in any society where there are thousands and thousands of people exactly the same its natural for elitism and fragmentation to occurr and I have seen so much pain come from this. So many of my amazing and very frum friends suffer with not getting kids into school and the pain of this is just unbearable. I just want to put a question out there: are we missing the forest for the trees? Are we more concerned about the greater good than the individual? As I recall Moshe Rabeinu would always go after that lone sheep that would stray because the rest of the heard was going to be fine. We have lost our sensitivity to the individuality and feelings of our neighbors who may "appear" different than us.

ps. I also post for kosherstreet.com which is a very frum website. My posts on there are slightly more conservative but even so many people may not approve. Meanwhile Yeshivaworld.net who hosts Kosherstreet has no problem with me.

momosix

Thu, Jun 02 2011, 11:50 pm

fashion-isha, I wish you had never posted because I fear that all the negative comments will impact your future posts.

I love your blog and my 14 year old daughter loves it as well. We even bought her a pair of shoes based on your recommendation. I learned how to make a beautiful professional looking floral arrangement from one of your posts.

It is so much easier to keep piling on the restrictions on women in terms of dress than for the Olam to deal with the bigger problems that our community is facing. I never heard of a child going off the derech because they saw a woman's toes and I believe that Hashem is much more concerned with how we treat each other than which Rav we follow when it comes to interpreting the laws of Tznius.

There is room for everybody. The women who walk around with baggy skirts and schmates on their head (not a very regal look for a bas melech but certainly very tzanuah) and the women who enjoy dressing trendy. One group should not threaten another.

Remember when we were told in Bais Yaacov in the 70's that we should never work but should stay home and be wives and mothers? Well now every Bais Yaacov girl is told that she must work to support her husband in kollel, despite what his obligations are in the ketubah. Similarly, if you look at pictures of our grandmothers and great-grandmothers, you will see modestly dressed women who might be showing their collar bones or elbows. Now, they would never get a shidduch!

There are differing opinions about what is halachically considered to be Tzanuah. Then there are societal and community standards, which may be much stricter. Our problem is that we have translated them into halacha, and we lose all respect for other halachik opinions. Narrowmindedness has become a hallmark of our community. One need look no further than the current "shidduch crisis" to see that we have lost sight of what is important (tablecloths, shoes. . . Give me a break!).

Sharon, my 14 year old daughter needs you. If you can show her how to be tzanuah and trendy, kol Hakavod! She can relate a lot better to the way you dress and the things that you show her than she can to the way her teachers or even her mom dresses! And at the end of the day, I can decide whether I think something works for her or for me.

And so far, she hasn't asked for Loubatains!

Finally, if someone doesn't like your blog, they don't have to read it! I just hope that their comments don't ruin it for the rest of us. I am so tired of everyone in the community sucking the life out of every last permissible thing.

shlomitsmum

Fri, Jun 03 2011, 7:28 am

I have a fashion blog too and did not publicize it much because I was afraid of negativity.... So kudos to Sharon for having a thick skin... Very Happy

Fashion is a tool for creative and self expression and as any tool it can be used for good or evil ,each person and community has it's own level of sensitivity.

IMO as long as what needs to be covered is covered in a tasteful manner ,there is no need to turn Tzniut into a independent religion or a one-upmanship competition ,or at it's worst a way to hide OCD tendencies or mental illness .... remember the "burka rebbetzin" .

I have done business with women who thought fashion was "stupid" ,"shallow"or"for the slim only" once they were made over according to their personality ,body type and lifestyle they felt so good you could see them glow in confidence .

So when in doubt just consult your LOR and learn the Halachot ,have fun with fashion and don't drive yourself (and others )nuts Very Happy

PinkFridge

Fri, Jun 03 2011, 9:31 am

momosix wrote:

There was a lot of great food for thought in this post.

First of all, I want to apologize for not reading, just looking at the pictures.

I agree with what you wrote. I live out of town where it's easier to see all this. I will comment on our grandparents: I remember once seeing some elderly nuns, very modestly dressed, with full headgear...and their elbows showing, just. Now no one would say they were provocative. I would say that a LOT of the older pictures were the same, the women just didn't project s-xuality. Excuse me, zexualtiy. Sekshuality. Whatever.

My grandparents were part of an early 20th century America social group of young people were committed to Shabbos being mechazek each other. There are many chashuv products of the shidduchim from their picnics. It was such an innocent age! Like the song goes, "Girls were girls and men were [gentle]men; mister we could use a man like Herbert Hoover again." Actually, it predated HH a few years. Halevai we can raise our kids with that kind of innocence and simplicity. But we're in a different world. I'm not one of those who build impermeable (ha, like that's possible) bubbles; I'm here, aren't I? But I edit my life a bit more. We don't have a TV, subscribe to secular papers, or go to movies and we do have heavily filtered internet. We can look to the past for inspiration but I we can only recreate it superficially. We do not have that inner essence anymore.

And Momosix, most important of all, you are not abdicating your responsibility, you know your daughter and aren't trying to remake her in an image that she's not, and you have a good working relationship. Kudos!

amother

Fri, Jun 03 2011, 11:36 am

sharonlangert wrote:

Wow! I clearly cut off the picture at the elbows while so many other frum bloggers show short sleeves. Also there is absolutely nothing halachically wrong with wearing open toe shoes with no socks when wearing a super long maxi skirt! I even asked my local "Lakewood" rav. I feel like I'm back in high school where I always felt harshly judged and nitpicked for wanting to look good!

I learned when I ran a business that it's very important to be able to accept constructive criticism. You were doing well in the beginning, but you're starting to lose it a little and no one is being overly critical, just honest and making good points. I don't know, if this is a paid ad, maybe it's not the place for people to critique, but if you're stam posting about this blog, I think you should be prepared for varying opinions. Personally your style is not my cup of tea, but I wish you hatzlacha, and believe your intentions are good.

sharonlangert

Sun, Jun 05 2011, 12:35 am

I really would like to emphasize also that I myself am NOT a designer clothing snob! To me dropping mega bucks just to own a designer item is a real waste of $. Everyone who knows me knows I spend very little on my clothes and part of my creativity is shopping in stores like Marshalls, Target, Forever 21 and H&M and finding pieces that look more expensive and then putting together interesting outfits. I know this takes time and creativity and maybe I should emphasize more how to's on creating looks for less than posting celebs wearing "tznius" clothes. I just get really excited and inspired when I see a non Jew dress modestly because it inspires and affirms how much better a woman looks when she is covered appropriately. Not everyone is going to get that message though. Also, I thought that it would be a little vain and NOT so tznius for me to post so many pictures of myself and the outfits I put together, but maybe that would be better? What do you think? This is all great food for thought and in the end I'm glad I posted and was able to really hear from many different types of frum women. Just remember, no matter what your size or your budget you CAN look and feel great appropriately for a Jewish Bas Melech AND for the right reasons.

DrMom

Sun, Jun 05 2011, 3:02 am

sharonlangert wrote:

... I know this takes time and creativity and maybe I should emphasize more how to's on creating looks for less than posting celebs wearing "tznius" clothes. I just get really excited and inspired when I see a non Jew dress modestly because it inspires and affirms how much better a woman looks when she is covered appropriately. Not everyone is going to get that message though. Also, I thought that it would be a little vain and NOT so tznius for me to post so many pictures of myself and the outfits I put together, but maybe that would be better? What do you think? This is all great food for thought and in the end I'm glad I posted and was able to really hear from many different types of frum women. Just remember, no matter what your size or your budget you CAN look and feel great appropriately for a Jewish Bas Melech AND for the right reasons.

I agree with your first instinct here. Truthfully, I'd feel like someone must be rather vain or an outright exhibitionist to start a thread advertising a blog consisting entirely of photographs of oneself.

Besides, the collective celebrity population has orders of magnitude more outfits and glamour than most of we fashion pleibs. You'd have to have a large wardrobe to be able to sustain a blog like that using only your own closet.

Isramom8

Sun, Jun 05 2011, 7:23 am

"I just get really excited and inspired when I see a non Jew dress modestly because it inspires and affirms how much better a woman looks when she is covered appropriately. Not everyone is going to get that message though."

I get that message, and I agree. However, only one or two of the models you featured actually show us this. Kate in the turtleneck sweater with the scarves does (but not the too-tight pencil skirt), and a couple of the "demure" white dresses.

Otherwise, my main objection to holding these photos up as a guide for our girls is that the clothing is mainly quite form-fitting (and knees are often exposed).

All the hats are extremely attention-grabbing, with that intention.

I think that's it - the idea that looking beautiful is positive, but making heads turn and people whisper "fabulous! divine!" is the opposite of what we are after. Outlining womanly curves is definitely a look we want to avoid.

Since it's all in the name of chinuch, we might as well devote our energies into teaching girls from a young age (before they get accustomed to different views) the beauty of fashions that are a little more relaxed in their fit, more classicly stylish.

When one of my daughters was into fashion and wore her things a little closer-fitting and a little shorter (but still below the knee in all positions) than I would have liked, I didn't argue. But neither did I encourage and praise it. When something met my standards, I praised the look. I'm like a mentor to another teenage girl in my life, and when she wears something appropriate, I tell her that the tzanua look is so gorgeous on her; it's so "her"! If girls hear this from a young age, I think they will likely return to it, even if they experiment for a while.

Kate and her mother seem to have the basic idea, mostly.

I'm in Israel, so maybe America is different.

OP, you certainly put a TON of work into your website, and I can appreciate and admire that! If it inspires your daughters and others to better tznius than they would otherwise have, then I wish you success!

amother

Sun, Jun 05 2011, 11:14 am

DrMom wrote:

Isramom8,
I live in a community in EY, and there are some women who dress in attention-catching clothes, although they are not tight or overly-revealing in any way. They are fun, and somewhat eccentric. I don't know of anyone who considers them inappropriate (I guess I never took a survey).

Standards differ from community to community, even within EY (or within the US, or wherever).

Or within cities -- there are communities in Lakewood where the clothes featured in the blog would be scandalous and others where it would be fine.

As a lakewooder I would like to say that I don't know that there are communities in lakewood that these clothes are considered fine. They are tolerated but it is definitely frowned upon and even "tolerated" is probably a nice way of saying it. You will get stared at, whispered about and sometimes you will get approached by a local Rav or have an anonymous letter left on your doorstep. I am not condoning or condemning this way of dress just stating the facts. If you lived elsewhere you would likely be accepted without a problem but lakewood has different standards - right or wrong. I have definitely toned down my way of dressing since I moved here 10+ years ago and I would be lying if I didn't say that I would be one who would take a double take if Sharon Langert walked past me. However I would not look twice if she walked past me in Monsey, Deal, Brooklyn or anywhere else. It is definitely a double standard but I just don't expect it in lakewood.

That being said I was a bit insulted that you insinuated that those of us who don't dress up as much as you are "frumpy" and whatever other terms you used. I wear long denim skirts, black gap t-shirts and sometimes I'll throw on stockings, a shorter skirt and still my gap t-shirt Wink

. I don't know why that makes me unattractive. My husband likes the way I dress - has never said otherwise and I dressed the same when we were dating so I haven't "let myself go" so to speak. I see people who only care about the shoes they wear, the channel sunglasses on top of their shaitel, their french manicure and are always looking in the mirror when they pass it. I have less respect for them than for those that may be more "frumpy" but do more chesed, say "hello" when they pass people in the supermarket and don't look down at others for dressing differently.

Although your blog is not for me I wish you luck. Although I am obviously not cool enough to be part of your group I am still happy the way I am.

amother

Sun, Jun 05 2011, 4:37 pm

Quote:

Also there is absolutely nothing halachically wrong with wearing open toe shoes with no socks when wearing a super long maxi skirt! I even asked my local "Lakewood" rav.

Sharon, would your Rav agree to have his name quoted on-line? I would be quite surprised to hear that this is accepted by any "main-stream" Lakewood Rabbonim.

As such, it brings up a real question of "minhag hamokom". Although there were many Torah-observant Jews living in Lakewood before there was a Yeshiva, at this point the numbers of Yeshiva students and graduates are probably the majority (though I can't be sure). If so, it would seem that the Yeshiva-approved Rabbonim have a right to set standards - and - possibly to set standards that Yeshiva-endorsed schools will require of their students and parents.

There is room for style and individuality without form-fitting, attention-seeking clothing.

I have a daughter who has a greater need for self-expression than many of her classmates, and I have been very careful to give her room to be herself. However, when I felt it necessary I said, ad kan, this crosses an invisible line. She has developed into a very self-confident young woman, without anyone showing her Vogue or Cosmo (or excerpts thereof), boruch Hashem.

I would like to point out that the more you see something, the more your eyes become accustomed to it, and the more desensitized you become. Which is why many of us would not look at fashion magazines or fashion blogs. It's something like "lo sosuru acharei eineichem"....