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-> Interesting Discussions
EmesOrNT
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 Tue, Jan 10 2012, 12:06 pm
I don't think homosezuality should be up for debate. It exists, obviously, and unless you are in that situation, you have no way to judge, or decided whether it's "curable" or not. Personally, I think it's as curable as me being able to change my left hand with my right.
However, what the torah says about acting upon it (and this doesn't apply to lesbians), may be up for debate, as there are different interpretations. At face value, a man should not lay with a man as he does with a woman.
Debate that.
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willow
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Tue, Jan 10 2012, 12:09 pm
| Clarissa wrote: | My gay friends are wonderful sons, daughters, husbands, wives, partners and parents. Yes, many of them have children. They work, they love their spouses, they take great care of their children, they pay taxes and they make me feel very happy to know and love them and be loved by them.
There is no chance of decent discourse when you compare it to incest and even child molestation. Really. |
But Clarissa I am not taking away from the bolded I am not saying they are not human
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chanahlady
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Tue, Jan 10 2012, 12:10 pm
| mamommommy wrote: | | chanahlady wrote: | | mamommommy wrote: | | Clarissa wrote: | Your comparing it to anxiety is pretty offensive. But you won't let go of that. So don't make believe you're answering anybody's questions. I don't ask KKK sympathizers to explain racial equality.
You think I'm converting people to a cause? Here? One person equates homosexuality with incest and pedophilia, and the other one with mental illness? Oh, please. I'd sooner walk up and down the street and convince everyone on my block to go play hopscotch with me. |
I see that you will call my comparison to it being anything but completely normal offensive. I guess in turn I should certainly be offended by you comparing my explaining my position as the KKK explaining theirs.
I don't know if you know anything about the history of homosexuality, but in the not so distant past, it actually was officially considered a psychological disorder, so equating it with such is not a distant concept.
And your continued stigmatization of mental illness is insulting. I wonder if anyone with strep throat will come on here all up in arms that I analogized their illness to homosexuality. |
Pointing out something that's been nearly completely discredited in the professional world doesn't really help your argument. Homosexuality stopped being considered a psychological disorder several decades ago, precisely because the medical community stopped considering it a mental illness, on par with schizophrenia or BPD. Now, the prevailing medical and psychological view is that it is a normal variation of human s-xuality, and so continuing to equate homosexuality with mental illness is indeed -- in my opinion, and many other opinions -- offensive. |
I want to point out that at no point did I actually say that homosexuality is a mental illness and I was merely using it as an analogy. I was responding specifically to someone who called the analogy insulting. I want to add than many people who suffer from more innocuous forms of mental illness may be insulted to have their illness put on par with schizophrenia. You can choose what is insulting to you. (BTW, I compared it to other issues as well.)
For informational purposes, one with homosexuality, to this day, can be given the diagnosis of "s-xual Disorder, NOS", but this is given on an individual basis based on the patients presentation. |
I'm sure anyone can be given the diagnosis of s-exual disorder, NOS -- even heterosexual married men. But not all people who are homosexual would be diagnosed this way simply because they were homosexual if they happened to find themselves in a psychologist's office on an unrelated issue. That's what's changed, I'm sure.
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mamommommy
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Tue, Jan 10 2012, 12:24 pm
| Clarissa wrote: | My gay friends are wonderful sons, daughters, husbands, wives, partners and parents. Yes, many of them have children. They work, they love their spouses, they take great care of their children, they pay taxes and they make me feel very happy to know and love them and be loved by them.
There is no chance of decent discourse when you compare it to incest and even child molestation. Really. |
I don't know if it's a function of the written word, or the fact that I have only half a mind on this conversation, or if you're just looking for reasons to be insulted, but you are pulling anything that could possibly be construed as negative, and making that the sole content of my statements.
Someone, with limited understanding of the topic, asked a question. One which you obviously found insulting and refused to respond to maturely. So, I responded the way I (and many others) view it, and you decided to take offense to that as well. What if I explained as this: "Yes, it's a s*xual preference, the same way that Mr. Heterosexual is attracted to women, and Mr. Homosexual is attracted to men, and Mr. Pedophile is attracted to children?" How should I have explained her misunderstanding? If you wanted it explained in a certain way, then do it. Don't mock her with drivel and then criticize a legitimate response.
You will take insult with it being compared to anything that is not absolutley and completely appropriate. And anyone who does not view it that way must be a homophobe, or a hater, or dangerous. Is it impossible for anyone to be in the middle ground, where they can respect everyone's right to live their lives the way that they want to, but disagree with that lifestyle?
What are you even doing in this conversation if there's no chance of decent discourse? Honestly, you are the only one in here stomping their feet like a toddler. I believe you were the one who allowed the discourse to degrade to name-calling. If you are so wise on the issue, and everyone else so misguided, then educate us. Don't throw a tantrum!
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mamommommy
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Tue, Jan 10 2012, 12:33 pm
| chanahlady wrote: | | mamommommy wrote: | | chanahlady wrote: | | mamommommy wrote: | | Clarissa wrote: | Your comparing it to anxiety is pretty offensive. But you won't let go of that. So don't make believe you're answering anybody's questions. I don't ask KKK sympathizers to explain racial equality.
You think I'm converting people to a cause? Here? One person equates homosexuality with incest and pedophilia, and the other one with mental illness? Oh, please. I'd sooner walk up and down the street and convince everyone on my block to go play hopscotch with me. |
I see that you will call my comparison to it being anything but completely normal offensive. I guess in turn I should certainly be offended by you comparing my explaining my position as the KKK explaining theirs.
I don't know if you know anything about the history of homosexuality, but in the not so distant past, it actually was officially considered a psychological disorder, so equating it with such is not a distant concept.
And your continued stigmatization of mental illness is insulting. I wonder if anyone with strep throat will come on here all up in arms that I analogized their illness to homosexuality. |
Pointing out something that's been nearly completely discredited in the professional world doesn't really help your argument. Homosexuality stopped being considered a psychological disorder several decades ago, precisely because the medical community stopped considering it a mental illness, on par with schizophrenia or BPD. Now, the prevailing medical and psychological view is that it is a normal variation of human s-xuality, and so continuing to equate homosexuality with mental illness is indeed -- in my opinion, and many other opinions -- offensive. |
I want to point out that at no point did I actually say that homosexuality is a mental illness and I was merely using it as an analogy. I was responding specifically to someone who called the analogy insulting. I want to add than many people who suffer from more innocuous forms of mental illness may be insulted to have their illness put on par with schizophrenia. You can choose what is insulting to you. (BTW, I compared it to other issues as well.)
For informational purposes, one with homosexuality, to this day, can be given the diagnosis of "s-xual Disorder, NOS", but this is given on an individual basis based on the patients presentation. |
I'm sure anyone can be given the diagnosis of s-exual disorder, NOS -- even heterosexual married men. But not all people who are homosexual would be diagnosed this way simply because they were homosexual if they happened to find themselves in a psychologist's office on an unrelated issue. That's what's changed, I'm sure. |
That's why I said that it's given on an individual basis depending on how it's presented by the patient. My point was merely that the concept still exists. For the record, as you may know given that you seem to have some knowledge on the subject, there are quite a few axes for diagnosing mental disorders and the differences between them are great. For example, although substance abuse can receive a mental illness classification, is it really comparable to a personality disorder? Or is depression comparable to a pervasive developmental disorder (also classifiable as a mental disorder)? Or dementia comparable to an anxiety disorder? The classifications are so diverse, that it's silly to even believe that they are all truly one lump group.
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happybeingamom
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Tue, Jan 10 2012, 12:36 pm
Two things
| amother wrote: | http://forward.com/articles/149114/?p=1
Rabbi Shmuel Kamenetsky has recently joined forces with JONAH, a Jewish “change therapy” organization, to claim that, as a matter of religious principle, since the Torah prohibits homosexual behavior the orientation must be, by necessity, a curable disease.
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1-
Read the article and I have a hard time taking it seriously. Do you think Rav Shmuel has the time to join forces with this organization. Maybe he recommends it, maybe he supports it but who knows because the author didn't bring any proof of this and the author has an agenda and is biased to his point of view.
2-
I am an Orthodox Jew and I follow the Torah and believe what it is written in it whether I understand it or not. I can bring up many halachos that don't seem logical to us (Chokim).
So if homosexuality is a choice, genetic, a mental illness, part of normal human s-xuality whatever causes it that does not change the fact that certain s-xual acts are against the Torah. there is no place for two Jews of the same gender to marry one another according to the Torah.
I feel terrible for people who have this nisayon as I am sure it isn't easy. May we all have the strength to overcome our nisyanos.
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Clarissa
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Tue, Jan 10 2012, 12:57 pm
Manonmommy or whatever your name is, I don't feel like discussing this with you anymore. I'm sorry if this seems like a tantrum or whatever. You and Willow can decide what mental illness to compare it to. I just hung up with my friend. His kids are sick and his husband is out of town. I'm going to go help him out.
Good luck with getting to the bottom of this very important issue. I'm sure whatever you conclude will be very meaningful.
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daisy
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Tue, Jan 10 2012, 1:12 pm
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FTR, I once had a psych professor who liked to talk about the 3 types of s-xual orientation.
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havefaith
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Tue, Jan 10 2012, 1:13 pm
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How can anybody judge anybody if they are not in their shoes? It dosnt matter if it's disease or not and I believe it's not a disease but who knows how much pain of confusion these people go through because they didn't chose to be like this. It can be he-- for a frum person to know he is unnaccepted and looked down apon because of this and he might even be a better person than you and me. so who are we to judge? I look up to people struggling with any big nisoyan in their life because they are so strong especially if they don't give up on life for being different and especially if they keep other mitzvos.
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daisy
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Tue, Jan 10 2012, 1:13 pm
why does the autocorrect add a dash in the word s-xuality? It makes it sound holy.
Wait this time it didn't do it. s-xual - not ok, s-xuality ok.
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amother
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Tue, Jan 10 2012, 1:16 pm
| daisy wrote: |
FTR, I once had a psych professor who liked to talk about the 3 types of s-xual orientation. |
3 types? please excuse my ignorance, but what does this mean?
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daisy
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Tue, Jan 10 2012, 1:21 pm
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gay, straight, and pedophilia
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Yael
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Tue, Jan 10 2012, 1:48 pm
some posts have been removed. amother is getting a warning for using amother to post hateful comments.
please keep the thread civil and on topic.
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veganesther
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Tue, Jan 10 2012, 4:16 pm
Every generation of Yidden had there own distinctive set of issues to grapple with.
we are the generation that must allow for the possibility that our frum, torah observant G-d fearing children are homosexual.
To force, coerce a person who is not capable of desirung to make their flesh one with a person of the opposite gender makes no sense.
So open your hearts and your homes to your homosexual child. pray they meet someone tenderhearted and loving and let them lead a life a mitzvot with the person of their choosing.
let Hashem deal w / their avarot. we all are far from perfect.
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imamiri
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Tue, Jan 10 2012, 4:19 pm
| veganesther wrote: | Every generation of Yidden had there own distinctive set of issues to grapple with.
we are the generation that must allow for the possibility that our frum, torah observant G-d fearing children are homosexual.
To force, coerce a person who is not capable of desirung to make their flesh one with a person of the opposite gender makes no sense.
So open your hearts and your homes to your homosexual child. pray they meet someone tenderhearted and loving and let them lead a life a mitzvot with the person of their choosing.
let Hashem deal w / their avarot. we all are far from perfect. |
^^ITA.
And to this part: | Quote: | | To force, coerce a person who is not capable of desirung to make their flesh one with a person of the opposite gender makes no sense. |
It can also cause them deep emotional pain and harm. And harm to the person they are forcing themselves to be with.
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Mitzvahmom
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Tue, Jan 10 2012, 4:29 pm
| amother wrote: | | Mitzvahmom wrote: | | My ex husband is Gay, and I must tell u since he came out and accepted who he is. He is a healthier person, better father and we probably have a better relationship now then we did while married..... | (op here) Ok, now that you see the lives of homosexuals, close-up, what is your opinion of the opinion of the Gadol Hador R' Shmuel on changing them with therapy and the fact that the Torah clearly forbids homosexuality?
Is there something that The Creator of the Torah is missing? Can we pick and choose which parts of the Torah we believe and analyze our brains out to defend homosexuals who dont want to an cant be changed? |
In response to this... I am not sure if anyone can be changed, we are who we are. Now I realize that my ex was abusive and controling because I was his link to a "normal" life, being frum was his link to a "normal" life. He was struggling internally with whom he really was. As the wife, I always thought it was my fault that he was not attracted that I was doing something wrong because s*xually I was very turned on and wanted him. Yet I was constantly rejected, among other issues, I.e controling and abuse...etc..
Once he came out, things changed dramatically for him and for me. I was relieved it was not me, and it was as if something was released. He is much happier and healthier with his partner.
Yes we are frum Yidden, but maybe it comes from being a BT and having a really good mashpia while becoming frum. She taught me the importance of accepting people for who they are and where they are holding. She did not push me to be come frum right away, she stressed the importance of taking things slowly. Resulting in myself being a stable BT, and very happily frum now. Majority of my family are not frum, so I am used to being understanding and accepting of people where they are holding. I am not sure if this makes any sense, but for myself I realized the importance of accepting my ex husband and being proud of him for discovering his true self. He's healthier and a better father now that he knows whom he is. Is my ex frum anymore? No, but I think because I am accepting and open with him in regards to our kids. He turns around and is respectful back.
I am not sure if these organizations help really, unless the person really has a desire to change. Yet I wonder in the back of my mind, if these people are forced into marriage to have a "normal" life. If these people are struggling like my ex was to be normal, how fair is that to their spouses?
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mamommommy
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Tue, Jan 10 2012, 4:35 pm
| veganesther wrote: | Every generation of Yidden had there own distinctive set of issues to grapple with.
we are the generation that must allow for the possibility that our frum, torah observant G-d fearing children are homosexual.
To force, coerce a person who is not capable of desirung to make their flesh one with a person of the opposite gender makes no sense.
So open your hearts and your homes to your homosexual child. pray they meet someone tenderhearted and loving and let them lead a life a mitzvot with the person of their choosing.
let Hashem deal w / their avarot. we all are far from perfect. |
I believe that you are addressing quite a few different issues:
1) There are issues specific to the era in which we live with which the frum community must grapple. True.
2) No one should ever feel forced or coerced into any type of relationship. True.
3) Frum, torah-observing yidden may be homosexuals. True.
4) We should open our hearts to our homosexual children. True.
I think that these issues are mutually exclusive, and none of them translates into a homosexual relationship being accepted by the Torah. If my child were to struggle with mitzvah observance, any mitzvah, I would try to find the appropriate guidance for my child. I would continue to love him/her with all of my heart, but I would also work to help them overcome their struggles.
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ora_43
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Tue, Jan 10 2012, 4:42 pm
I don't think brain traits have to be split into "disease" and "not disease," things can sorta be both.
Take ADHD for example. You could have a person in America for whom it's a disease that keeps them from functioning in school, a person in an agrarian society somewhere for whom it doesn't particularly impede function, and a person elsewhere who finds that their "ADD personality" actually helps them as a businessman. So is it a "disorder" or not - depends on the person, on what they need to do and the extent to which ADD is stopping them.
I think of this as similar. There are some people who deal with homosexual attraction by accepting it completely as a natural part of themselves. But then you also have people who desperately want to not have those attractions (as evidenced by groups like JONAH). So for some it's a disorder, for others, not.
I know some argue that the problem is with the values the latter group was raised with, but personally I think that's like saying that ADD isn't a real problem because people could always just go be farmers. IOW - not terribly realistic.
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spring13
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Tue, Jan 10 2012, 5:42 pm
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How can behavior be a disease? If you're asking whether a homosexual orientation is a disease, then that makes more sense as a question - but I think the answer is no. I think that in the vast majority of cases, the methods used by JONAH won't work. It's just not that simple, and I don't think it's necessary either. The Torah doesn't say it's assur to BE gay, it says it's assur to have gay physical relationships. Which is another kettle of fish, IMO. And I won't add to the burden that religious gay men already face by telling them that they're just pretending to be dealing with such a difficult problem.
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