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Forum
-> Parenting our children
-> School age children
frumamn
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 Thu, Mar 29 2012, 10:58 am
I'm attaching an article from Torah.org about the origins of Chalav Akum.
http://www.torah.org/advanced/......html
The article, for those who don't like to read too long, says that chalav yisrael is halacha (to the extent where it is not permissible to use a keili that was used to cook chalav stam until it has been kashered) that many leniencies were made regarding it due to difficult circumstances but were never upheld until recent generations. It brings a quote from R feinstein that although he did agree in principle with the leniency, he urges people to stretch to their limits in trying to obtain chalav yisrael and should refrain from eating chalav stam.
"Regarding the milk of government regulated dairies in our countries, there are definitely grounds for permissibility to say that they are not included in Chazal's prohibition, as we see that many are lenient in this due to dochak (pressing circumstances) in many places. However, in a place that chalav yisrael is obtainable, even though it requires a bit more effort or is a bit more expensive, it is not proper to be lenient in this. One should purchase chalav yisrael."
I hope this clarifies things a bit and helps OP explain her husbands decisions to her DD
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goodmorning
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Thu, Mar 29 2012, 11:17 am
| shalhevet wrote: | | marina wrote: | | Quote: | | It's a leniency in the law that has become widespread. But CY is NOT a chumrah. |
So just to clarify: if a chumra is widespread, it becomes halacha ( e.g. glatt kosher, skirts from 3, socks, pas yisrael, etc, etc, etc.) but if a kula is widespread, it's still a kula, right? |
These are not chumras/ kulas. The halacha is different according to different rabbonim/ sources. So, for example, the MB paskened that a girl must be dressed tzniusly from age 3, but the Chazon Ish paskened from an older age. Each person needs to go by their own rav. If their rav says age 6 or 9 is enough, they are being machmir to start at 3, but if their rav says to go by the MB it is not a chumra, but rather the halacha for them.
Pas Yisrael is the halacha. There are circumstances when Pas Akum is allowed according to halacha. |
Pas Akum is always forbidden.
According to the Rema, Pas Paltur is always permitted ([possibly] besides for Shabbos/Yom Tov/Aseres Yemei Teshuva); according to the Shulchan Aruch, Pas Paltur is only permitted if it is difficult to obtain Pas Yisroel (or the price/quality is vastly different).
For Ashkenazim, then, eating only Pas Yisroel during the week would seem to be a chumra rather than halacha.
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saralem
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Thu, Mar 29 2012, 1:34 pm
CY is the halacha. Altho I would refrain from calling OUD treife, I would never, NEVER give it to my family, or to any other jew. There is a spiritual effect on the neshama from everything we do or take in, what we see, taste, hear, etc. A child's neshama is the purest--my explanation is that we have to safegaurd the purest of neshamas eevn more--in all arenas, not just food.
I never understood why some people take this on at a later age, or only when living in NY where it's conveneient, etc. It's what we're meant to do, from birth on. I thank G-d I've done this for my kids, altho they are free to do what they want when they get married and make their own decisions.
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amother
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Thu, Mar 29 2012, 1:52 pm
OP here. I spoke with my daughter this morning and gave the explanation about CY being holoucha and oud being a heter. She seems fine with it. My children are confused a bit because they used to eat certain national brands and can't now. Hopefully, my children will not resent it and stop speaking to me. This I could not handle. I thought the worst would be they have oud houses. I didn't realize a child could be so upset about food. This is causing anxiety for me.
My husband is still livid. He is contacting the school. He is of the opinion the school should not say what is ok to eat unless it is ok for every single student to eat.
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jelly belly
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Thu, Mar 29 2012, 2:01 pm
| saralem wrote: | CY is the halacha. Altho I would refrain from calling OUD treife, I would never, NEVER give it to my family, or to any other jew. There is a spiritual effect on the neshama from everything we do or take in, what we see, taste, hear, etc. A child's neshama is the purest--my explanation is that we have to safegaurd the purest of neshamas eevn more--in all arenas, not just food.
I never understood why some people take this on at a later age, or only when living in NY where it's conveneient, etc. It's what we're meant to do, from birth on. I thank G-d I've done this for my kids, altho they are free to do what they want when they get married and make their own decisions. |
So tell me, how does it feel to be holier than R Moshe Feinstein?
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yummymummy
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Thu, Mar 29 2012, 2:04 pm
| amother wrote: | OP here. I spoke with my daughter this morning and gave the explanation about CY being holoucha and oud being a heter. She seems fine with it. My children are confused a bit because they used to eat certain national brands and can't now. Hopefully, my children will not resent it and stop speaking to me. This I could not handle. I thought the worst would be they have oud houses. I didn't realize a child could be so upset about food. This is causing anxiety for me.
My husband is still livid. He is contacting the school. He is of the opinion the school should not say what is ok to eat unless it is ok for every single student to eat. |
what exactly did the teacher say and what was the context?
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OOTBubby
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Thu, Mar 29 2012, 2:05 pm
| jelly belly wrote: | | saralem wrote: | CY is the halacha. Altho I would refrain from calling OUD treife, I would never, NEVER give it to my family, or to any other jew. There is a spiritual effect on the neshama from everything we do or take in, what we see, taste, hear, etc. A child's neshama is the purest--my explanation is that we have to safegaurd the purest of neshamas eevn more--in all arenas, not just food.
I never understood why some people take this on at a later age, or only when living in NY where it's conveneient, etc. It's what we're meant to do, from birth on. I thank G-d I've done this for my kids, altho they are free to do what they want when they get married and make their own decisions. |
So tell me, how does it feel to be holier than R Moshe Feinstein? |
Rav Moshe personally (for himself) ate CY. He paskened that Cholov "Hacompanies" is allowed in the US.
Nowadays there are those that hold that Cholov Stam is actually Cholov Treife due to various veterinary procedures done on cows. If you would like to see a link to that information, let me know and I'll find it for you. There was recently a kashrus symposium on the subject where the Nirbateur Rav and Rav Belsky (he should have a refuah shleimah) discussed the issue. The Nirbateur holds of the "Cholov Treife" side and Rav Belsky didn't refute him but just said that he feels we can't pasken that way because it would be too difficult for people trying to keep kosher in out of the town places (I can probably find a video link to that symposium as well if you are interested).
My point is to please be aware that the issue is not at all as simple as some people think.
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amother
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Thu, Mar 29 2012, 2:09 pm
| OOTBubby wrote: | | jelly belly wrote: | | saralem wrote: | CY is the halacha. Altho I would refrain from calling OUD treife, I would never, NEVER give it to my family, or to any other jew. There is a spiritual effect on the neshama from everything we do or take in, what we see, taste, hear, etc. A child's neshama is the purest--my explanation is that we have to safegaurd the purest of neshamas eevn more--in all arenas, not just food.
I never understood why some people take this on at a later age, or only when living in NY where it's conveneient, etc. It's what we're meant to do, from birth on. I thank G-d I've done this for my kids, altho they are free to do what they want when they get married and make their own decisions. |
So tell me, how does it feel to be holier than R Moshe Feinstein? |
Rav Moshe personally (for himself) ate CY. He paskened that Cholov "Hacompanies" is allowed in the US.
Nowadays there are those that hold that Cholov Stam is actually Cholov Treife due to various veterinary procedures done on cows. If you would like to see a link to that information, let me know and I'll find it for you. There was recently a kashrus symposium on the subject where the Nirbateur Rav and Rav Belsky (he should have a refuah shleimah) discussed the issue. The Nirbateur holds of the "Cholov Treife" side and Rav Belsky didn't refute him but just said that he feels we can't pasken that way because it would be too difficult for people trying to keep kosher in out of the town places (I can probably find a video link to that symposium as well if you are interested).
My point is to please be aware that the issue is not at all as simple as some people think. |
CY uses different cows? I thought it just meant a Jew watches the milk.
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jelly belly
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Thu, Mar 29 2012, 2:11 pm
| OOTBubby wrote: | | jelly belly wrote: | | saralem wrote: | CY is the halacha. Altho I would refrain from calling OUD treife, I would never, NEVER give it to my family, or to any other jew. There is a spiritual effect on the neshama from everything we do or take in, what we see, taste, hear, etc. A child's neshama is the purest--my explanation is that we have to safegaurd the purest of neshamas eevn more--in all arenas, not just food.
I never understood why some people take this on at a later age, or only when living in NY where it's conveneient, etc. It's what we're meant to do, from birth on. I thank G-d I've done this for my kids, altho they are free to do what they want when they get married and make their own decisions. |
So tell me, how does it feel to be holier than R Moshe Feinstein? |
Rav Moshe personally (for himself) ate CY. He paskened that Cholov "Hacompanies" is allowed in the US.
Nowadays there are those that hold that Cholov Stam is actually Cholov Treife due to various veterinary procedures done on cows. If you would like to see a link to that information, let me know and I'll find it for you. There was recently a kashrus symposium on the subject where the Nirbateur Rav and Rav Belsky (he should have a refuah shleimah) discussed the issue. The Nirbateur holds of the "Cholov Treife" side and Rav Belsky didn't refute him but just said that he feels we can't pasken that way because it would be too difficult for people trying to keep kosher in out of the town places (I can probably find a video link to that symposium as well if you are interested).
My point is to please be aware that the issue is not at all as simple as some people think. |
Oh, I am fully aware that other poskim give a different psak. Obviously there are disagreements in halacha, and everyone should follow his posek.
I was commenting on the nauseating attitude. I don't believe that any of the poskim who pasken against chalav stam would phrase it quite that way.
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OOTBubby
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Thu, Mar 29 2012, 2:12 pm
| amother wrote: |
CY uses different cows? I thought it just meant a Jew watches the milk. |
Yes they do. On the farms that produce the milk for CY the cows the problematic veterinary procedures are removed so that they are not included in the milk.
I am very familiar with this -- DH runs the biggest CY company outside of the East Coast, which serves most of the middle US and much of the west, parts of the south, etc. The Nirbateur is their Rav Hamachshir.
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Barbara
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Thu, Mar 29 2012, 2:14 pm
| OOTBubby wrote: | | jelly belly wrote: | | saralem wrote: | CY is the halacha. Altho I would refrain from calling OUD treife, I would never, NEVER give it to my family, or to any other jew. There is a spiritual effect on the neshama from everything we do or take in, what we see, taste, hear, etc. A child's neshama is the purest--my explanation is that we have to safegaurd the purest of neshamas eevn more--in all arenas, not just food.
I never understood why some people take this on at a later age, or only when living in NY where it's conveneient, etc. It's what we're meant to do, from birth on. I thank G-d I've done this for my kids, altho they are free to do what they want when they get married and make their own decisions. |
So tell me, how does it feel to be holier than R Moshe Feinstein? |
Rav Moshe personally (for himself) ate CY. He paskened that Cholov "Hacompanies" is allowed in the US.
Nowadays there are those that hold that Cholov Stam is actually Cholov Treife due to various veterinary procedures done on cows. If you would like to see a link to that information, let me know and I'll find it for you. There was recently a kashrus symposium on the subject where the Nirbateur Rav and Rav Belsky (he should have a refuah shleimah) discussed the issue. The Nirbateur holds of the "Cholov Treife" side and Rav Belsky didn't refute him but just said that he feels we can't pasken that way because it would be too difficult for people trying to keep kosher in out of the town places (I can probably find a video link to that symposium as well if you are interested).
My point is to please be aware that the issue is not at all as simple as some people think. |
Really? The same Rav Belsky who said:
| Quote: | | In light of this current state of affairs, such that the farms are indeed uniformly inspected for non-kosher animals, and the dairy plants’ inspectors work with the farm inspectors’ data, Rav Belsky ruled that the heter of cholov stam applies for those who wish to rely on it, albeit based principally on farm inspections rather than on dairy inspections. The correlation of data between the farm and dairy inspections extends the farm inspections’ efficacy to the dairies, from which point the milk is “bo l’yad Yisroel” and retains its permissibility. |
That's from the OU, by the way. Do you have a source for him saying that its really treyfe, but we'll let people eat it anyway?
For an interesting article on why its not economically feasible to milk pigs (and therefore why I'm pretty sure dairy farms aren't using pig milk), see http://watertrough.blogspot.co......html
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OOTBubby
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Thu, Mar 29 2012, 2:17 pm
| Barbara wrote: |
Really? The same Rav Belsky who said:
| Quote: | | In light of this current state of affairs, such that the farms are indeed uniformly inspected for non-kosher animals, and the dairy plants’ inspectors work with the farm inspectors’ data, Rav Belsky ruled that the heter of cholov stam applies for those who wish to rely on it, albeit based principally on farm inspections rather than on dairy inspections. The correlation of data between the farm and dairy inspections extends the farm inspections’ efficacy to the dairies, from which point the milk is “bo l’yad Yisroel” and retains its permissibility. |
That's from the OU, by the way. Do you have a source for him saying that its really treyfe, but we'll let people eat it anyway? |
I didn't say he said it's treife. I said that he didn't refute the claims of the Nirbateur but rather explained why he paskens as he does. And non-CY farms certainly have non-kosher animals (but they are not of a sort that any farm inspector has a problem with).
I will see if I can find the links with the info.
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OOTBubby
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Thu, Mar 29 2012, 2:21 pm
Here's a link to the video of the discussion with the Nirbatur Rav and Rav Belsky. Some of the comments on the page a worth noting as well.
Please note that I have not personally watched the video; I have repeated what I was told was discussed.
Cholov Akum Nowadays
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saralem
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Thu, Mar 29 2012, 2:24 pm
Oh my jellybelly. I'm sorry if I offended you or anyone else. R'Moshe Feinstein did not give blanket approval /heter for cholov stam. Very misunderstood.
If one believes that enhancing the purity of one's children's pure neshamas is paramount, then one understands that mesiras nefesh may be the price to pay. Both literally and figuratively!!
I don't judge anyone or their practices. I don't think I'm holier than any other Jew--how could I be, when we all have a neshama that's connected to each other's , and a part of Hashem? I just don't eat OUD and wouldn't give it to another Jew--regardless of their feelings about it. When I get OUD stuff in MM, I take it to work (I work with non-Jews).
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jelly belly
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Thu, Mar 29 2012, 2:28 pm
| saralem wrote: | Oh my jellybelly. I'm sorry if I offended you or anyone else. R'Moshe Feinstein did not give blanket approval /heter for cholov stam. Very misunderstood.
If one believes that enhancing the purity of one's children's pure neshamas is paramount, then one understands that mesiras nefesh may be the price to pay. Both literally and figuratively!!
I don't judge anyone or their practices. I don't think I'm holier than any other Jew--how could I be, when we all have a neshama that's connected to each other's , and a part of Hashem? I just don't eat OUD and wouldn't give it to another Jew--regardless of their feelings about it. When I get OUD stuff in MM, I take it to work (I work with non-Jews). |
No offense taken. I think your passion is easily misunderstood for condescension. I'm glad to hear that is not the case 
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saralem
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Thu, Mar 29 2012, 2:34 pm
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You know jellybelly--your comment to me is so good for me to hear. I really mean it. I am a very passionate person, and I think that there may be times when I need to self-monitor this a bit more, so others don't see it as condescension. I really truly thank you for that. Plus, I was feeling bad that I offended you.
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amother
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Thu, Mar 29 2012, 3:06 pm
Not OP.
But can someone explain to me how you don't consider OUD to be treif but consider it not to be following halacha (by believing Cholov Yisroel is halacha, you would be believing, by default, that anyone keeping OUD is not keeping halacha?)?
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Depressed
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Thu, Mar 29 2012, 3:11 pm
| jelly belly wrote: | | saralem wrote: | CY is the halacha. Altho I would refrain from calling OUD treife, I would never, NEVER give it to my family, or to any other jew. There is a spiritual effect on the neshama from everything we do or take in, what we see, taste, hear, etc. A child's neshama is the purest--my explanation is that we have to safegaurd the purest of neshamas eevn more--in all arenas, not just food.
I never understood why some people take this on at a later age, or only when living in NY where it's conveneient, etc. It's what we're meant to do, from birth on. I thank G-d I've done this for my kids, altho they are free to do what they want when they get married and make their own decisions. |
So tell me, how does it feel to be holier than R Moshe Feinstein? |
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OOTBubby
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Thu, Mar 29 2012, 3:12 pm
| amother wrote: | Not OP.
But can someone explain to me how you don't consider OUD to be treif but consider it not to be following halacha (by believing Cholov Yisroel is halacha, you would be believing, by default, that anyone keeping OUD is not keeping halacha?)? |
I don't totally understand your question, but I can say that those that hold that Cholov Stam is Cholov Treife do hold OUD to be treife. Those that hold there is a heter for Cholov Stam do not hold OUD to be treife.
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