Preschool director washed girls mouth with soap!!

bashinda

Sat, Jun 02 2007, 11:25 pm

amother wrote:

Hey, come on!

Soap these days is not made of lye and is not poisonous.

I bet that little girl will never used dirty language again!!

I think kids these days use threats of abuse as a way to do and get whatever they want! That's why we have such terrible tznius/drug/etc... problems in the frum world today nobody would have dreamed of a few generations ago!

Somebody finally put their foot down and might have saved this girl's neshama. Good for her!

I'm just glad you're not my daughter's morah!

chestnut

Sun, Jun 03 2007, 12:08 am

amother wrote:

NO, NOT GOOD FOR HER!!! do you realize that the principal had no business doing it? would you be OK if the principal or the teacher hit the child on the face, for example, when she said a bad word? there is a limit to what they can do. she should have reported it to the parents. period!

please - she saved that girl's neshama? all she did was to show that force and authority is everything. she couldn't talk to the girl? once, twice, a hundred times! that's what she is there for.

my early elementary school teacher used to beat our hands/fingers with a ruler when we didn't write neatly/nicely! did it change our handwriting? mine is as sloppiest as it gets!

what if this girl's parents would never do such thing to their kid, does she have a right to do it?

mimivan

Sun, Jun 03 2007, 4:04 am

I don't take these anon people seriously if they don't stand by their views with their names!

Humiliating a child never teaches them anything but to hate authority. Take this example from some non jewish neighbors in the town where my mother grew up.

The boy kept cussing all of the time. The mother tied the boy on a leash to the dog house in the back yard to "teach him a lesson.| (this was in the 1950s, when this kind of treatment was tolerated). My mother said all this boy did that entire day was yell at the top of his lungs

"I'm not a *&^*ing Dog!! I'm not a *(&^ Dog!!"
LOL

and at the same time Crying

Do you think this boy stopped swearing? He became the town drunk!

happyone

Sun, Jun 03 2007, 7:35 am

When I was growing up it was a common thing in pre-school. We all knew that if we spoke foul language it was off to the sink. Those that went to the same school as me I'm sure remember that. Gilah soap won't kill anyone but in the same breath I'll say that I sure hope they wouldnt dare do it to my daughter. it's happened to me and there were no long term remifications. I bet you it happened in the same school I went to as a child. Some of the staff hasnt changed in 25-30 years!

Cinderella

Sun, Jun 03 2007, 1:12 pm

Hi, I know I am posting here for the first time, but I have to agree with pp who say that its totally inappropriate what the teacher did. Yeah, likely its not deadly or harmful, but a teacher, or anyone other than a child's parents, has no right to discipline a child in this type of way. If the child is so aweful than the parents should be notified, and asked to either deal with the bad language, or have her removed from the school. In any case the "teacher" Twisted Evil

must not have a heart if she felt that SHE should be the one to undertake to discipline a small child that way while she was crying hysterically. It sickens me Sad

greenfire

Sun, Jun 03 2007, 4:28 pm

if basHinda is over reacting because of her incident ... why am I??? Nobody ever washed my mouth with soap... and I cannot believe any of you think this is ok ... or that it will save her soul ... it is probably destroying her soul as we speak ... something should have been done right away ... what about the other kids the teacher may be harming as well ... if this was your child would you wait ... and threats are just as bad as action ... I would want my kid as far away from that teacher and school as possible !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

chen

Mon, Jun 04 2007, 10:34 am

Again I will not contribute to the discussion of the teacher's actions, reprehensible though they may have been. I would just like to clarify: hand soap, while not recommended as a dietary supplement, is not what is commonly thought of as "poisonous" and even eating it straight up like a cookie would not kill a child. At worst it would make him throw up and/or have the runs for a while. Before believing and propagating horror stories like "Child Dies After Having Mouth Washed Out With Soap", please check hoaxbusting websites like Snopes.com.

What is true is that alcohol-based hand sanitizer like Purell, which is mostly alcohol, can poison a child if ingested (and an adult if swallowed in sufficient volume)--same as good ole liquor. If you wouldn't give your child liquor to drink (and you shouldn't, even if it's legal where you live), then don't let her drink Purell, either. And electric dishwasher detergent (Electrasol, e.g.), unlike dishwashing detergent used for handwashing (Dawn, e.g.), is corrosive and toxic by ingestion even to adults. A child could indeed die if he swallowed the stuff used in dishwashing machines, or at best suffer mouth burns if the stuff got in his mouth but he didn't swallow.

By the way, most soap (as opposed to detergents and detergent-based cleansing bars) is still made with sodium hydroxide, the chemical name for lye, or some other strong alkali. However--the lye combines with fat (in a reaction called "saponification" for those of you who care about such things) to produce soap. Homemade soap may still have some unreacted lye left behind if too much was added--enough to make the soap harsh and irritating but not enough to cause fatal chemical burns. If there were more than traces of lye left over you would not have soap, you'd have a jellylike mess. Commercial soapmakers have very strict quality and process control so that they do not use excess sodium hydroxide, and in fact many soaps have ingredients added to make the finished product less alkaline and thus less irritating and drying to the skin.

If a teacher is abusive or disciplining inappropriately that's one thing, but please don't cloud the issue by getting hysterical about a "poisoning" that isn't.

Last edited by chen on Mon, Jun 04 2007, 10:47 am; edited 1 time in total

HindaRochel

Mon, Jun 04 2007, 10:39 am

Chen, there was a case, at least one, where parents washed their child's mouth out with soap, regular handsoap, and the child died. Now, it was awhile back and things might have changed, but it always made me leery after that (There also may have been more to the story than that and I just didn't know). But I just wouldn't want to take the chance.

If you saw that it was a hoax, please could you either pm me the link or post it here? I do want to know and I don't want to be alarmist.

JRKmommy

Mon, Jun 04 2007, 3:12 pm

Amother may benefit from checking the laws where she lives, because they do vary. I know that my jurisdiction is on the stricter side - but I can tell you that in Ontario, Canada:

- any preschool teacher who did that here would be instantly fired, and could face criminal assault charges

- there would be an investigation by child protection officials if the principal condoned this sort of action

- any person who "performs professional or official duties with respect to children" has a duty to report stuff like this, and must report it directly (ie. not just to their own supervisor)

There are some jurisdictions which do permit corporal punishment by teachers - I've seen some rather sickening information from some southern states like Mississipi, where "paddling" is still permitted. If you area is like that, they may not respond to a report. However, I think that would still be a case where parents should be told what is going on in the school.

southernbubby

Tue, Jun 05 2007, 11:48 am

While I know nothing of the specific story that Hinda Rochel was talking about, could the soap have been in a quantity that could have caused the child to choke to death?
When we were kids, a small amount of soap was put on a paper towel and then rubbed on the tongue. It was a bad taste but nothing more. Most children accepted then that corporal punishment was a real possibility at home and in school. Most parents felt that it was the duty of parents and teachers to mete out corporal punishment.
While corporal punishment wasn't a major cause of death in children, it occasionally killed a child. More than that, it caused tremendous anger in many children.
Today we have better methods of teaching children than by inducing fear and pain. Still, the shulchan aruch allows for mild corporal punishment for pre-BarMitzvah children. If teachers were careful to "repel with the left hand and draw close with the right hand", this type of discipline would not have such bad results.

ILOVELIFE

Wed, Jun 06 2007, 4:02 pm

I'm torn. on the one hand, if my dghter wld say a dirty word, I don't know that I wld certainly not wash her mouth out. I'm not terribly outspoken against good ol fashioned stuff. However, I'm also not sure how I'd feel if this wld happen if my dghter was in school.

Another point. Many of us who did get these 'poisonous' and 'horrible' punishments surrvived very nicely. And there are one of 2 reasons for this:

1. We felt generally safe and knew the punishment was given in moderation and not meanly and knew it was coming and justified. In other words, I don't think my parents or teachers ever 'shoved it down my throat or poured tons. It was done calmly, quickly and in moderation.

2. I think we were built to tolerate more than kids today. I don't know waht's the chkn adn what's the egg-- but we handled life better than many kids today and maybe it's cuz we weren't treated with kid gloves all the time. And trust me, I'm not advocating beating or a/thing like that Ch'V.[/list]