What is the reason why someone would not keep Chalav Yisroel

amother

PlumPink

Wed, Aug 23 2023, 2:42 pm

amother Royalblue wrote:

CY is not just about fear of mixing the milk. There are other halachot involved, including not leaving the milk uncovered and such.

Never heard of this, please provide source.

scruffy

Wed, Aug 23 2023, 2:44 pm

amother OP wrote:

I don't live anywhere near NYC I live out of town but just wondering why all kosher dairy places I've been to and around are CY

Actually not all kosher dairy places are CY. Especially OOT.

Odelyah

Wed, Aug 23 2023, 2:46 pm

amother OP wrote:

I bet Chabad would have an answer as to the money portion, any Chabadniks here who can chime in?

Chabad, and most chasidim and sefardim hold if it's not CY it is cholov akum=treif
they have their own mesorah and daas torah, and don't accept Rav Moshe's heter which created a new category, chalav stam.
all other ashkenazi non-chasidim etc. generally hold of rav moshe's heter that cholov stam is kosher, even if they keep CY they will eat off chalav stam keilim, maybe eat it while traveling, etc...

to answer your original question a major impediment for many is the cost difference. but for Chabad etc. it's treif, so there's nothing to discuss. sky-high prices, lack of availability etc. notwithstanding.

amother

Gladiolus

Wed, Aug 23 2023, 2:47 pm

scruffy wrote:

Actually not all kosher dairy places are CY. Especially OOT.

This. I was just in a pretty in town area and the cafe was a kosher establishment who had some cholov yisroel items that
You needed to ask for otherwise it’s not a cholov yisroel place . Many OOT dairy places are not cholov yisroel.

giftedmom

Wed, Aug 23 2023, 2:47 pm

amother Blush wrote:

Obviously you don't, because there are plenty of places, even in New York city, where chalav yisroel is not easily available.

This
I travel a lot and CY is not a given even in major cities

Sewsew_mom

Wed, Aug 23 2023, 2:49 pm

amother OP wrote:

No, that's where CS and CY are different, a Jew is involved in the process of the milking of the cow, a jew is watching the cow being milked. Like all animal and grape products, for kashrut, there is a Shomer torah Jews involvement

I'm wondering if you're aware of how hechsherim work. The mashgiach isn't actually present at every moment of every day. They rely on the fact he can pop in at any time. And therefore isn't actually considered he's watching the cow throughout the process. So no. He's not actually watching the whole time-nor is he even around most of the time. In that case your counter argument isn't valid.
It feels like you're just trying to prove a point and not actually curious why people hold cholov Stam. I think there were enough reasons that people gave for why they keep it and it seems that you have an agenda to get everyone to believe the same way which you do.

amother

Mauve

Wed, Aug 23 2023, 2:53 pm

I have only heard of cholov stam by Americans. I'm not American nor do I live in the US and I've never heard of anyone outside the US using anything other than cholov yisroel. Does our milk cost more? Sure, but so does our meat and other kosher food. It's expensive to be a yid and for many of us we just wouldn't consider buying non cholov yisroel, the same as we wouldn't buy other non kosher food.

Sewsew_mom

Wed, Aug 23 2023, 2:55 pm

amother Mauve wrote:

Correct. My understanding is that o ly America has certain restrictions on dairy that other countries don't have. Hence why Americans can rely on cholov Stam and out of the country cannot.
One cannot eat cholov Stam in other European/south American countries - they can in fact be treif.

giftedmom

Wed, Aug 23 2023, 2:57 pm

amother Mauve wrote:

Lol say what? Ever been to South Africa? Ofcourse chalav stam is a thing outside the US. Many places in the world don’t have CY.

amother

Wed, Aug 23 2023, 2:59 pm

Odelyah wrote:

why do some consider it treif?

rmbg

Wed, Aug 23 2023, 2:59 pm

Ladies, you owe it to yourselves to be educated. You are intelligent women!
Cholov yisroel is not a chumra. It is the Halacha. Plain and simple. Those who eating cholov Stam are relying on a heter. Huge difference!
Re: Mashgichim someone mentioned above. There are different levels of requirement of hashgocha. Some food require a mashgiach temidi- which means a mashigiach at all times. Some circumstances only require a yotzai vinichnas- a mashgiach that comes and goes. Etc...
even in pas yisroel, there are different standards, a glow bar, an actual fire etc... too much to write about here but theres a lot of misinformation being shared here.
start learning about kashrus. It will fascinate yo!

yachnabobba

Wed, Aug 23 2023, 3:00 pm

amother Aquamarine wrote:

Its expensive. They hold by OUD. They rather keep pas yisroel instead of CY.
Many reasons...

Why do some women wear no tights and some do? People follow different beliefs

[I]
Why is it one or the othet

amother

Crystal

Wed, Aug 23 2023, 3:02 pm

amother Aquamarine wrote:

Its expensive. They hold by OUD. They rather keep pas yisroel instead of CY.
Many reasons...

Why do some women wear no tights and some do? People follow different beliefs

We don’t because we hold you don’t need to in America. It has nothing to do with cost or pas yisrael (we don’t keep that either)

amother

Teal

Wed, Aug 23 2023, 3:03 pm

We just don’t believe adding extra restrictions is a good thing. We follow Halacha as prescribed by our Rav and when there is a widely accepted heter we use it. That is the way most of the Torah works (ie eruv or selling chamitz) Rav Moshe held that it was okay and many Rabbonim since then hold by his shita. If there was no benefit and costs and product were the same, I suppose we would keep it. But costs are much lower, product and quality is much better and there is nothing like an ice cream in an amusement park.

csstb

Wed, Aug 23 2023, 3:03 pm

Cholov Yisroel is a required standard. Nobody disagrees with that. The question is whether one can rely on the government, industry standards, and a couple other considerations to claim that anything marketed as milk in this country fits the standard of cholov yisroel. Many people quote Rav Moshe Feinstein about a heter to rely on the government and many people hold by that. And there are other Rabbonim, including before Rav Moshe Feinstein’s psak, who outright allowed it. Some reasoned the same as Rav Moshe and some came to similar conclusions for different reasons. Not everyone who drinks regular supermarket milk is relying specifically on Rav Moshe and may have a tradition of psak that predates his stance. Many people do not rely on Rav Moshe and do not hail from communities where supermarket milk was accepted, and require a Jew to supervise thoroughly.

Tl/dr it’s a reasonable psak to allow supermarket milk as fitting a c’y standard, and not everyone who does is relying only on Rav Moshe.

And to the poster who compared it to pas yisroel, the two things are different and to say pas palter (a type of pas akum) isn’t allowed is just wrong.

Rappel

Wed, Aug 23 2023, 3:05 pm

amother White wrote:

It's interesting. I had a Rav who explained how frustrated he was that people go around saying "I don't keep chalav yisroel."
He responded that every person in klal yisroel does and must keep chalav yisroel. HOWEVER, according to rabbanim, because of the strict guidelines of dairy production in the USA, one can rely on regular milk products as being consided "chalav yisroel" ie: no other animal products or milk added.

Thank you! I came here to say this.

Rav Moshe Feinstein's innovation is that the FDA is so strict, that its dairy qualifies as Chalav Yisrael.

There are many poskim whom felt this stepped outside the definition of CY.

Hence there's the alternative names Chalav Stam/Nochri.

---
ETA: Comparing CY, which is basic halacha, and pat Yisrael is irrelevant. They're apples and oranges.

goodmorning

Wed, Aug 23 2023, 3:11 pm

amother OP wrote:

yes I do. and I'm shocked that the responses don't include major uproar for kosher dairy restaurants! Why should all the kosher restaurants be CY! Nonsense, it costs so much more for a pizza then non CY cheese. It would prob be $10 or $15 instead of $20 or $25 if we got the kosher restaurants to change to CS

I know this was satire, but just pointing out that the savings actually probably wouldn't be that much. Hard cheese (e.g. mozzarella or cheddar, possibly does not apply to soft cheeses like cottage or cream cheese) needs to be gevinas Yisroel to be kosher, which means that the cost of kosher hard cheese is high, period. Compare the prices of Miller's (cholov stam, gevinas Yisroel) to Haolam (cholov Yisroel, gevinas Yisroel, owned by same producer as Miller's) and you'll see that the price difference is not enough to drive the price of a pie of pizza down by more than a dollar or two.

You don't save much money by using cholov stam hard cheese, though you do save by buying cholov stam milk, ice cream, chocolate, and packaged pastries/ cookies/crackers/pretzels and another potentially dairy snack foods.

liz3210

Wed, Aug 23 2023, 3:23 pm

amother OP wrote:

Not guilt tripping or bashing, I genuinely want to understand what’s keeping people from keeping Chalav Yisroel, when it is so readily available nowadays.

People that don't keep chalk Yisroel it doesn't mean they are not kosher they trust the OUD THATS GOOD ENOUGH FOR THEM