sub forum for imamothers losing their emunah

↑ grin ↓

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 2:40 am

amother wrote:

I would be interested in such a forum, as long as it is a place for intellectual discussion with a strong desire of all participants to help one another and guide each other through the fog. The problem for me is that the more I learn, and the more I see of 'the frum world', the less I believe in all the pratim. I think I would currently describe myself as an orthoprax, meaning that I see great value in the basic practices of orthodox Judaism, but I just don't buy into what a lot of the mefarshim bring down.

you may need to learn deeper mefarshim.

↑ amother ↓

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 2:40 am

mammele26 wrote:

OPINIONATED wrote:

amother wrote:

OPINIONATED wrote:

The schools teach about the party, but they don't teach that Hashem was running the show.

OK, my Bais Yaakov got this part right. What bothered me to no end was needing a malach to sleep with Achashveirosh becuase of course Esther would never have done that. But that is not an emuna issue, more of an emunas chachamim issue. Can that be part of this forum?

I hope so, because that's the easiest one to deal with. We were taught that Esther was permitted to sleep with Achashveirosh because otherwise she would be killed. She had a son with Achasveirosh, Koresh, who allowed the Jewish people to build the Beis Hamikdash. How could she have a son if the malach came between them? Another virgin birth story?

There's something wrong with what you were taught, then. This aveira is one of those that the torah requires "yeyhareig v'al ya'avor".

Maybe its a machlokes whether or not she was really married to mordechai, which might make it not eishes ish, and therefore not yihareg vi'al yaavor.
Or maybe when it comes to saving the jewish people, the yehareg vi'al yaavor become permitted, like in this case. Or with Yael and Sisra. Or do you think she really only fed him cheese and wine and didn't seduce him?

↑ grin ↓

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 2:53 am

The more I think about it, the more I feel opposed to the very idea of forming such a subforum, a place where people could ch'v be closeted up with all their doubts and misunderstandings, never to find an answer. I am sure that all your great Q's have equally great answers and should be thrown out to everyone to help find them - sin't that what the controversial section is for? or right here under Intellectual stuff - nu, let's here them, one by one.

↑ amother ↓

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 2:57 am

Constructive purposes for this "Borderline Apikores" Forum:
Being able to ask for advice on how to work on emunas chachomim when certain situations occur.
Asking each other what books/shiurim/arguments helped the most with certain issues.
Being able to get chizzuk for doing things you don't necessarily believe are important but know you should be doing.

If you write these stuff on the main board, you get a "How dare you!!! What chutzpah!!! How can you even think that---!" Etc. Which just turns people off more, not helps them.

If you want to make sure this stays a positive thing, not a negative thing, maybe you can admit 1 rebbetzin or otherwise inspirational figure as a moderator to keep it from becoming a gedolim/hashem/torah/halacha bash fest.

chavamom ↓

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 3:02 am

amother wrote:

OPINIONATED wrote:

amother wrote:

sequoia wrote:

But the medrash isn't *meant* to be taken literally.

Tell that to the Bais Yaakov I went to. But again, it depends on the age of the child, a 4 year old is going to learn this literally and rightfully so (along with all the other black and white characterizations), an older child should be taught the lesson behind the story and why chazal brought down this particular parable to teach it. Some schools cover this level very rarely and I think it's a great disservice to many of their students.

Rav Brevda has a speech about the story of Purim. He argues that the schools are teaching this wrong. Children are taught that the Jews were afraid of Haman, because Haman wanted to kill the Jews. In truth, Hashem made Haman hate us because the Jewish people at the time went to the party of Achashveirosh, when they were not supposed to.

The schools teach about the party, but they don't teach that Hashem was running the show.

Seriously? So how do they reconcile that with the whole "she couldn't go back to Mordechai [her husband according to this line of thought] after the one time she went to Achshverosh willingly" pshat? Sorry to distract from the topic at hand...

↑ grin ↓

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 3:02 am

amother wrote:

I guess I'm somewhat shocked at the expected reaction from the main board, although I see your point. (again, I never went to BY) I also am hesitant because I'm afraid of the blind leading the blind, doubt feeding on doubt.

↑ grin ↓

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 3:03 am

chavamom wrote:

amother wrote:

OPINIONATED wrote:

amother wrote:

sequoia wrote:

But the medrash isn't *meant* to be taken literally.

I'm going to make this into an experiment.

↑ amother ↓

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 3:06 am

amother wrote:

I just don't see this happening. Are people who are questioning the existence of G-d or some other major belief going to help you with Emunas chachomim?

I don't think people would bash if they knew you were struggling with Emunah. That's why a safe haven or even just a thread like this could be used instead. Nobody on this thread is going to say "how dare you" because it's obvious that you are struggling if you're posting in this context. I have actually found imamother pretty helpful with certain issues.

I recommend this set of lectures http://www.torahlectures.com/c-125.aspx
He is very low key and honest, for those of us who are sick of the kiruv entertainers

↑ hadasa ↓

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 3:10 am

amother wrote:

If you can figure out a way to make it stay that way, without people complaining and getting turned off by over-moderating, I'm all for it.

shalhevet ↓

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 3:20 am

hadasa wrote:

If the purpose of the forum will be to get answers and Chizuk, then it can be useful for everyone, because, as mentioned before, everyone has questions at times.
But if the point is only to have one's doubts and questions validated and strengthened by those who feel the same way, then the existence of such a forum will be detrimental to all concerned. I would be very wary of this. There are too many blogs and websites around dedicated to questioning and even ridiculing Torah and Judaism. We sure don't need another one right here.
There is a very fine line to tread here, between asking for the sake of reconciling one's sechel with one's Neshama, and asking for the sake of alienating them even further. I'm not sure it's a line that imamother is capable of treading.

I absolutely agree with you.

I think this sub-forum is a bad, bad, bad idea. (And I never normally care about anyone else having a sub-forum - you are welcome to your pets one.)

I davka got the feeling that OP really wants help to become stronger in her emuna. But IMO this is totally the wrong way to go about it. If someone has a question, let them post and then let the knowledgeable imamothers answer (maybe that would be a good idea - that there would be an open forum for questions in emuna and only imamothers with knowledge would be able to answer, and not those who want to validate the problem) but there are probably other websites/ sources with better sources of knowledgeable rabbanim for that.

This forum is going to get two main groups of imamothers - those who are struggling with their emuna and really want chizuk to regain/gain emuna, and those who are cynical/ are not looking to have any emuna etc. but are "trapped" in a frum lifestyle.

For the first group, who are genuinely looking for answers, what could be worse than having only the second group to "answer" them? And for the second group, really, do you honestly think Yael should be hosting a "support group" so you can all feel better about not wanting to work on your emuna?

I say NO to this sub-forum. And YES to the imamothers with doubts going to shiurim, consulting rabbonim, and asking genuine questions here or elsewhere.

↑ amother ↓

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 3:26 am

shalhevet wrote:

hadasa wrote:

Lets try it.
But remember, controversial section doesn't allow anon.

↑ amother ↓

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 3:31 am

shalhevet wrote:

This forum is going to get two main groups of imamothers - those who are struggling with their emuna and really want chizuk to regain/gain emuna, and those who are cynical/ are not looking to have any emuna etc. but are "trapped" in a frum lifestyle.

For the first group, who are genuinely looking for answers, what could be worse than having only the second group to "answer" them? And for the second group, really, do you honestly think Yael should be hosting a "support group" so you can all feel better about not wanting to work on your emuna?

I agree with this assessment. I belong to the first group and that's why I wouldn't just such a forum. Even though I struggle with basic major issues.

↑ chavamom ↓

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 3:31 am

hadasa wrote:

And just BTW, I hope I won't get kicked off the Chareidi forum for saying this, but I don't believe every single Perush and Midrash is literally true in the physical sense. How can that be, if they often contradict each other? Rather, some are true in the physical sense and some are true only in the spiritual sense, and it is not for us to determine which is which.

So kick me off the charedi forum too - we'll be in good company.

↑ amother ↓

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 3:34 am

amother wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

hadasa wrote:

Lets try it.
But remember, controversial section doesn't allow anon.

http://imamother.com/forum/vie.....40223