Issue with a certain chabad rabbi. Who to complain to?

pgk

Tue, Jan 23 2024, 4:24 pm

Ok pet peeve of mine right here- why are we telling people where to give their tzeddaka money? One has nothing to do with the other. If the money is owed to her it’s hers to claim and she can choose to give or not to give it to any organization of her choice. The fact that chabad is a wonderful organization in no way suggests that she should fargin money that is owed to her simply to make things easier.

amother

Cadetblue

Tue, Jan 23 2024, 4:40 pm

amother Teal wrote:

You're vacationing in a resort are with your family and your disputing a charge via PayPal??????
Consider it tzedaka and move on.
This season is crazy stressful for shluchim in resort areas.
I promise no shluchim are making money and living it up from said business. They are using it to cover costs of their shlichus.
If you'd have the decency to call a rav, they would tell you to consider it tzedaka.
Bring him to Bais din. A legal dispute with PayPal will affect his business and chabad house long term. You happy now?

I honestly expected some kind of s-xual abuse crazy story.

What does were she is vacationing have anything to do with the money that they owe her. And no you can not tell others were to give tzedaka.

amother

Tue, Jan 23 2024, 4:51 pm

amother Molasses wrote:

But what does this have to do with your monetary dispute?

Nothing. It just adds to the point that the 1 shliach in this area is a little bizarre.

And I'll say it again: I've never had a negative encounter with a chabad person and I have dealings with them.

I've also traveled many times and each experience in dealing with the chabad was excellent. This is not about chabad in general. I'm only mentioning that he's chabad because I was wondering if perhaps there are people on the top that oversee the shluchim.

He also said some pretty strange things in our email exchange that I might post later.

Dolly Welsh

Tue, Jan 23 2024, 4:53 pm

amother Pistachio wrote:

Just fyi, “just ordered some baked goods” can often mean the shlucha slaving away in her kitchen without the convenience ingredients etc. no matter how tired or busy.
Often “chabad” = a very busy overwhelmed mother/ homemaker / teacher who is squeezing you in because she’s THAT nice!

This.

You did say that they HAD NO cancellation policy. That can ONLY MEAN they do not process cancellations.

Chabad isn't a business and is not run like one. It's a family. You are expecting business-like situation.

Analogy:

If you told your aunt you were coming over, and sent her flour to bake for you, and she baked, and you had to cancel, what would you expect her to do with that food?

That is what Chabad is going to do. Give it to others or freeze it or something.

You're not getting that flour back.

Even though you paid for it.

Why? Because your aunt has already been bothered, so the uneaten food is her compensation for being bothered.

"Bothered," in the sense that she spent time and energy on your request, by thinking about it, and putting it on her crowded baking schedule. That took time and energy. She had plenty of other calls to answer and worry about, but she talked to you.

Let it alone, and be glad that your abandoned food nourished some lonely searching Jewish souls. That's nice, and the loss to you is not the end of the world.

But maybe it WAS a significant sum of money for you.

But you cost them their time and energy already.

That was done the minute you talked to them and they made the original agreement.

lamplighter

Tue, Jan 23 2024, 4:59 pm

It doesn't sound like this shliach dealt with this nicely but this has nothing to do with chabad or chabad headquarters, this is a basic money dispute. Call a rav or take him to din Torah.
The title of the post is very racist or whatever. Imagine I wrote "Issue with satmar store who do I complain to?".
If you had a complaint regarding a halachic or criminal issue ie shliach was serving not kosher food or inviting ladies to dance and entertain at his melave malka, you may have recourse to ask if there are higher ups to report this to. In such a case his validity as a shliach is questionable, it would investigated and he may lose his position. Money disputes belong in Bais din.

B'Syata D'Shmya

Tue, Jan 23 2024, 5:04 pm

amother Yellow wrote:

Why does everyone assume halacha is on his side? Once he got a replacement it was problematic to not refund it.

Not necessarily Dayan Yellow.
In any event, OP went to paypal so its in their hands. Not halacha. Her choice.

What was the point of this whole post, is beyond me. To vent, to warn others? To smear Chabad (she could have vented and hidden the specific details), to feel vindicated for turning to paypal?
Whatever. Its done.

amother

Yellow

Tue, Jan 23 2024, 5:07 pm

B'Syata D'Shmya wrote:

What’s up with the attitude? I know about cancellations and replacement because it comes up in my business. There are business halachos and getting paid twice for one service/ item is never allowed. You can only keep the money from a cancellation if it caused a loss.

amother

Gold

Tue, Jan 23 2024, 5:08 pm

B'Syata D'Shmya wrote:

It's obvious that it was partially to smear Chabad and saying how much you love us doesn't negate at all from what the rest of your post is saying.
I love how lamplighter said about the Satmar store owner. Exactly.

amother

Leaf

Tue, Jan 23 2024, 5:15 pm

amother Iris wrote:

You can be in touch with the Shluchim office if he is an official shliach.

Lol, you don't know much about Chabad. The shluchim office provides services for shluchim, Merkos sends shluchim out but they don't get involved in things like this.

amother

Silver

Tue, Jan 23 2024, 5:28 pm

OP I get you: I understand why you're upset and I did not find your post or title to be offensive. Seemed quite obviously your question was, who is generally in charge of Chabad shluchim so you can let them know the problems of this particular shaliach, to the end of not only getting some of your money refunded but also to protect the good name of Chabad in case this shaliach is causing problems for others. Sorry people are nitpicking your story. Also it's obnoxious to tell people they can surely afford to let go of hundreds of dollars since they're on vacation anyway and therefore must have loads of cash to fling around.

Dolly Welsh

Tue, Jan 23 2024, 5:30 pm

amother Yellow wrote:

Sure. But Chabad is not a business.

And there WAS A LOSS. The loss of Chabad's time and energy to book the order, put it on the baking schedule, order the flour to bake with.

A business builds compensation for the lost bother, and time and energy, of the inevitable cancellations into its general pricing. It both can, and has to. Or it won't survive.

But Chabad HAS NO pricing so it can't do that.

Chabad is merely a family who likes Jewish strangers a whole, whole lot. Some of the strangers contribute to it financially. That is not a pricing schedule: everything is free at Chabad. Note also that there was no 'cancellation policy' in place here.

The above is why there can't be one: no pricing.

What was being proposed would literally have caused Chabad a loss: of time and energy. A reverse donation. A negative donation.

Yes it's annoying when the amount of money wasn't small. But the minute the order was placed, the money was irrevocably spent. The unused food was a donation to Chabad.

So, therefore, its monetary value could in theory be used as a tax-write-off. But that might get too complicated.

Last edited by Dolly Welsh on Tue, Jan 23 2024, 5:32 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Sunflower

Tue, Jan 23 2024, 5:31 pm

I just want to say, as a shlucha, that I am sorry to hear you are having this experience. No Jew should treat another person this way, especially not a chabad shliach. If you are cancelling with plenty of notice there is no reason not to offer you a refund. (obviously if you call friday afternoon and cancel that is a different story...)

I do think this type of shliach is rare, there are a small handful of shluchim/shluchos like this.

I hope you have a wonderful vacation.

B'Syata D'Shmya

Tue, Jan 23 2024, 5:34 pm

amother Yellow wrote:

The attitude is that a BD has to hear from both sides before deciding.
And you dont have Smicha.
Last I checked, BD doesnt always side with imamother logic (see the post of the woman who decided to charge for charity work that she had initially offered for free)... so many nuances can change the whole story, we cant pasken - even if your business experience makes you think you are a mumcheh.

Ive never gotten a business receipt from any Chabad activities which I benefited from, not sure if their Shabbos meals are a business as yours is , or something else - a chessed that I am asked to contribute towards perhaps.
The receipts I got were categorized as charity. And honestly I always gave more to help them with their good work.
I know that if a plane lands unexpectedly close to Shabbos, the Chabad is there to help the stranded Jews. I know that when a Jewish kid was arrested for drug posession in a foreign country, Chabad is there to help. I know that Chabad has reached Jews who were unreachable.
So yes, I can fargin...arent we all brothers and sisters?

Besides OP chose not to go to BD, she put the whole thing in paypals hands.