Heartbreaking Tablet Article - What can we do?

ora_43

Wed, Oct 02 2013, 2:38 pm

marina wrote:

It's really more confusing only if your kids are stupid. If they are normal, they will deal fine, as long as you are respectful and explain things well.

That's ridiculous. A normal 14-year-old will "deal fine" with his father suddenly doing everything that he, the father, formerly taught his son is terrible and wrong and shouldn't be done?

No.

Quote:

I'm not sure why kids would be more confused when tatty goes off the derech than he becomes BT. I don't see a lot of wa-waa-waa, my husband became more religious and now my kids are so confused because we can't eat pork but before we could.

How many BTs do you know who were hardcore atheists, or liberals, or Christians, or whatever, teaching their kids that orthodox Judaism is morally wrong? (Or "just" sending them to schools that teach those things?)

Most BTs are making a smaller transition, relatively speaking. Those who are BT at age 30-something with a spouse and kids are mostly going from, say, conservative-Jewish-agnostic to MO, not from vocal atheist to Skver chassid.

And even they do very often have a hard time in their marriages and with their kids! If you're not hearing about it, maybe you're just not asking (not that I recommend asking, that would be rude).

marina

Wed, Oct 02 2013, 2:40 pm

ora_43 wrote:

marina wrote:

His article on birth control focused on the fathers and their challenges in providing for families and how many don't even know about birth control and how many are afraid of what their community might think. It was a great article. http://forward.com/articles/17.....p=all

I know what it focused on. I know it was well written. But well written or not, writing a very public article about your very private disagreements with your ex - and about how brainwashed your ex is - doesn't exactly indicate an ability to be respectful and non-biased when discussing your divorce.

I think it's a lot to expect a person who went through all that to be completely respectful and non-biased. His kids were torn from him. I would not be respectful in that case, would you?

mummiedearest

Wed, Oct 02 2013, 2:42 pm

amother wrote:

Marina you are a very moral person.

If you are please explain to me how you don't understand that leaving the Jewish fold and faith is different than finding the light of Torah?

How don't you understand that a parent who is an atheist is not a good influence on the children from a TORAH VIEWPOINT?

A BT does not have a bad influence on the children - just a different influence.
This is being said from a Torah viewpoint as I thought imamother was a site for frum jewish women.

I'm going to answer this, though I'd love to hear marina's response.

ezehu chacham, halomed mikol adam.

right? not "ezehu chacham, halomed mi-people who follow the torah only."

and that's because there's something to learn from everyone, including atheistic parents. the only time you can actively go against their wishes is if they order you to do something that is actually assur. ("actually assure" meaning halachically so, not eating square matzas when one has the minhag to eat hand-made.) kibud av va-em is in the ten commandments.

from a torah viewpoint, respecting a parent who is not religious but provides the child with kosher food and keeps shabbos when his children are around is an obligation. wearing jeans is not assur. wearing a smaller yarmulka is not assur. not wearing tzitzis is not assur. having slightly long hair is not assur.

do you see my point? a man can do all those things AND be an atheist and should still have access to his kids. not only that, but they are still obligated to respect him. which man in the gemara became a heretic but was still respected by one student? someone help me here. he rode a horse on shabbos but told his student (a great man) when to stop walking because he had calculated how many horse's strides reached the tchum. and while he was riding his horse on shabbos, he was willing to inform his student that his student should go no further.

BlueRose52

Wed, Oct 02 2013, 2:43 pm

ora_43 wrote:

writing a very public article about your very private disagreements with your ex - and about how brainwashed your ex is - doesn't exactly indicate an ability to be respectful and non-biased when discussing your divorce.

Are you kidding me? He's expected to be respectful towards the person who turned his children against him?! He's expected to be unbiased towards those who hurt him so badly, it made him contemplate suicide?

marina

Wed, Oct 02 2013, 2:44 pm

ora_43 wrote:

marina wrote:

It's really more confusing only if your kids are stupid. If they are normal, they will deal fine, as long as you are respectful and explain things well.

That's ridiculous. A normal 14-year-old will "deal fine" with his father suddenly doing everything that he, the father, formerly taught his son is terrible and wrong and shouldn't be done?

No.

Quote:

The kids may not like it, they may not be interested in going along with the new no-pork program, but they're not going to be confused about it. They will understand that a parent developed a new belief system and they need to respect that. Just like my teenager decided to become a vegetarian and we all managed to remain unconfused.

As for this: "How many BTs do you know who were hardcore atheists, or liberals, or Christians, or whatever, teaching their kids that orthodox Judaism is morally wrong? (Or "just" sending them to schools that teach those things?)"- that's precisely the point here. These communities brainwash their kids to believe that everyone who doesn't think like them is a horrible, empty secular person. So yeah, the kids will be upset when tatty goes OTD. The point is that it doesn't have to be that way- that's the tragedy of it all.

ora_43

Wed, Oct 02 2013, 2:45 pm

marina wrote:

ora_43 wrote:

marina wrote:

I think it's a lot to expect a person who went through all that to be completely respectful and non-biased. His kids were torn from him. I would not be respectful in that case, would you?

If I hoped to reconcile with my kids, I probably would.

But in any case, I'm not saying "oh, he's biased, that means he's a bad person." I'm saying that - good person or not - the way a person talks about their ex tends to be a good indicator of the way they talk about their ex. And the question of how honestly he talks about his ex is pretty relevant when talking about his article accusing his ex of being behind his non-relationship with his kids.

marina

Wed, Oct 02 2013, 2:48 pm

ora_43 wrote:

marina wrote:

ora_43 wrote:

marina wrote:

I think it's a lot to expect a person who went through all that to be completely respectful and non-biased. His kids were torn from him. I would not be respectful in that case, would you?

If you quit your job because your boss is abusing you, and then you express your disgust to others, how would it work for you if they said: look, you're clearly not objective here because of how you're speaking about your boss, we need to hear the other side of the story?

BlueRose52

Wed, Oct 02 2013, 2:49 pm

ora_43 wrote:

mummiedearest wrote:

but we can blame all those people you listed.

But how can you blame them, yet see the father as an innocent victim who was never given a choice? Nobody else had any more of a choice than he did.

If you think the leaders of these community don't have any choice in how they act and react to these situations, you're delusional. I will grant that there are at times societal pressures that even powerful leaders might be somewhat constrained by, but to claim that they share no culpability in how these intolerant attitudes and policies play out in these kinds of incidents, is just preposterous.

Last edited by BlueRose52 on Wed, Oct 02 2013, 2:56 pm; edited 1 time in total

marina

Wed, Oct 02 2013, 2:50 pm

mummiedearest wrote:

amother wrote:

I responded on page 4, last post. I like your post too. Elisha Ben Avuyah.

Barbara

Wed, Oct 02 2013, 2:52 pm

ora_43 wrote:

marina wrote:

ora_43 wrote:

marina wrote:

I think it's a lot to expect a person who went through all that to be completely respectful and non-biased. His kids were torn from him. I would not be respectful in that case, would you?

His ex sent a negotiator, on her behalf, who thought that letting him see his kids twice a year, but until they turned 13, constituted real and meaningful contact.

If you could only see your 6 year old twice a year, so you think that you'd have a warm and loving relationship with her? Do you think that, even without her father opening his mouth, she would draw the conclusion that you don't care very much about her? What conclusions would she draw if you were never permitted to see her older brothers and sisters?

So unless he is lying, there is no question that she is behind his lack of relationship with his kids.

mummiedearest

Wed, Oct 02 2013, 2:55 pm

ora_43 wrote:

mummiedearest wrote:

but we can blame all those people you listed.

But how can you blame them, yet see the father as an innocent victim who was never given a choice? Nobody else had any more of a choice than he did.

it's a question of power, ora. the rebbe might have been taught to do things this way, but as a leader, he has an obligation to make sure his community runs well. with power comes responsibility. and if you tell me that he has people who are go-betweens between him and the community, it's his responsibility to make sure he has access to all the issues at hand and that the go-betweens are responsible individuals.

as for the teachers, they are given power over the youths' minds. this is an incredible responsibility. I also blame teachers (in any community) who choose to hit their students, even if that was standard when they were students themselves. when one is given power, one should not abuse it.

parents, unfortunately, are given no power. and here I am not speaking of the chassidic community by itself. I see it in my community too. we are not allowed to voice complaints to the schools, and our children are not seen as individuals. our kids are in school for extended hours, and as they get older, the day gets longer. this makes it hard to find the time to educate our own children in what we want them to learn. and if you believe in bringing as many neshamos to earth as possible, you're kept in this kind of situation for a very long time. the boys have school on sunday and sometimes at night. ridiculous rules are made that parents must enforce. the only way to have a say in anything is to show you have money. then you may voice complaints and they might take care of things. and no, homeschooling and public school are not easy outs. I wish they were. but since they're not doable options for many, a lot of parents just learn to ignore all the issues. it's a survival tactic. it would be nice to have a parent union, but I don't see anyone who'd be willing to join. as a group, we parents share the blame too. because we give the power to the teachers and administrators and leaders who fail our children on a daily basis.

BlueRose52

Wed, Oct 02 2013, 2:55 pm

ora_43 wrote:

I'm not saying "oh, he's biased, that means he's a bad person." I'm saying that - good person or not - the way a person talks about their ex tends to be a good indicator of the way they talk about their ex. And the question of how honestly he talks about his ex is pretty relevant when talking about his article accusing his ex of being behind his non-relationship with his kids.

Truthfully, I'm not sure what you're referring to. I find his recollections about his wife to be quite respectful. He doesn't badmouth her in any way. What he describes is simply a very sheltered, naive and trusting person who is simply fighting for what she thinks is best.

Can you point to where he speaks in a disrespectful tone about her? I haven't read it all recently, so I might not be remembering correctly. Feel free to point out what I'm missing.

MommyZ

Wed, Oct 02 2013, 2:57 pm

Dolly Welsh wrote:

I wonder if you can imagine the misery of a child seeing a parent who, visibly and publicly, does not believe what he, the child believes?

The inner dissonance might be so bad that the child would indeed not want to see that parent.

With no poisoning of the mind coming from anybody.

The parent has, like in a horror movie, in the child's eyes, partly become a stranger, body-snatched. That's how it might look to the CHILD.

Adult mental and spiritual evolutions are not within the grasp of the child's head.

You need to be over age to deal with that. It's like driving and voting. For the grown. Making a child deal with that is like letting him drive your car.

Even in the miseries of divorce, the split parents aren't necessarily turning into brand new people, as they are here, in the view of the child. This is divorce on steroids.

Without kids, you can do what you want. I am talking about when there are kids.

My kids are dealing with just that. Misery? On some level, for my oldest child. Confusion for my middle child and oblivion for my youngest. We deal with each emotional need as it presents itself. That's what being a parent is about. I don't deny access to their father.

mummiedearest

Wed, Oct 02 2013, 2:57 pm

marina wrote:

mummiedearest wrote:

amother wrote:

I responded on page 4, last post. I like your post too. Elisha Ben Avuyah.

thank you, marina. I should go learn some gemara, I always forget the important names.

Dolly Welsh

Wed, Oct 02 2013, 2:58 pm

Fortunately for me I had it easy and went BT late in life. There were no underage children around to wonder why we can't eat pepperoni pizza anymore.

I think there is more to these stories than religious differences. It sounds like a lack of caring in general.

Yes, it is much better for the parent to grit her teeth than for small children to grit theirs. To the shoulders, the burden.

Too bad if the parents aren't happy.

If somebody has to be unhappy, it shouldn't be the children.

Ideally the parent can be happy too; perhaps that's do-able with patience and appreciating what you have.

Particularly if someone tells them it's not all beer and skittles outside religion, because it isn't. Pork tastes like chicken, shrimp taste like fish, movies are dull, and it's nice to have a complete day off from email and the phone. And endless amusement-dating, which is very different from marriage-dating, isn't ice cream.

But they don't know that. It all looks so funsy and easy.

We should hug the heroes who stay anyway, quietly, even when they no longer believe.

And yes, G-d loves them too. Maybe more than the others.

I know a man whose mother flitted about in leotards when he was a child, humiliating him in front of the neighbors. She could have kept that aspect of her artistic life to herself, when he and his siblings were young and getting teased.

But she had to express herself. She was a woman of Culture, you know. Modern dance. No housewife, she.

I also know a woman whose father had zillions, really zillions, of life compllications, that she only learned about later, when whe was in her thirties. She loves him for not making those tangles her problem, during her childhood. Now, that's a mentsch, that father.

It took self discipline, it hurt, it was a lot of work to preserve facades and secrets, and it was lonely. But he did it.

Sure that cost someething to her too, but not as much as what mental immodesty would have cost her.

greenfire

Wed, Oct 02 2013, 3:00 pm

the harsh realities in divorce are such that many parents try to alienate their children from the other parent ... that's already hard enough for any child to bear ... but for an entire community to excommunicate a parent from their children is simply inscrutable !!!

the pain & harshness that one goes through because of this is definitely heartless & heartbreaking

what ever happened to respect and acceptance of people ... doesn't everybody morph - some more 'frum' - some less 'frum' ... but a lot of this outer garb is just that an otherwise empty shell

who is anybody to be judge & jury keeping kids away from a parent who loves them so ? even ax-murderers get to see their kids ... why not a parent with different religious values ?

one should be patient in teaching their children to be accepting of all of Hashems world - let alone their other parent - regardless if they changed into jeans - or grew a beard & wears a kappotah

it doesn't help that I know this exists ... I'm still utterly in shock & crying over yet another life tortured - in the name of holiness ...

MUCH LIKE THE CHILDREN WHO ARE MOLESTED ~ DO YOU THINK ANY OF THESE KIDS ARE EVER GOING TO BE OKAY ?!?!?!

Barbara

Wed, Oct 02 2013, 3:01 pm

MommyZ wrote:

Dolly Welsh wrote:

Pressing the hug button wasn't enough. Sending one in words as well.

MommyZ

Wed, Oct 02 2013, 3:04 pm

Barbara wrote:

MommyZ wrote:

Dolly Welsh wrote:

Pressing the hug button wasn't enough. Sending one in words as well.

Thank you. I was quiet for a long time reading the thread, but the ignorance exceeded my tolerance level.