Cut Me Loose - By Leah Vincent. Anyone read it? Thoughts?

amother

Mon, Jan 27 2014, 1:18 pm

I know LV tangentially because I know some of her siblings.My only comment on the book will be - If you are the type of person who gets worked up over an Artscroll biography not giving the full picture then this book has material for a heart attack.

On a related note.A bunch of years there was a forum on haskafah.com discussing the then famous, now forgotten career OTD crowd. People were sharing there personal recollections versus what those people were telling the media.Not a single one of them was honest about their background.And this was not about subjective issues, like was a certain teacher a saint or a jerk, but rather about very black and white issues such as the school curriculum in their high school.

marina

Mon, Jan 27 2014, 1:19 pm

amother wrote:

I find it intersting that she is from an openminded and not insular sect of judaism yet her book will read almost the same way as those from ultra insular sects.
It makes me realize that it is not the insular sects that is causing problems for these kids. Its the kids themselves who no matter what sect they are from will never be happy and blame everything on their community and parents.

And dont ask me why im amother. I have a reason but cannot disclose it.

I recommend you not predict how the book "will read" until, you know, you actually read the book.

amother

Mon, Jan 27 2014, 1:25 pm

I have an OTD sibling, just went off his linkedin and facebook pages, the lies keep on going.

So if I read a book with a lot of family bashing, I don't take it as the truth in any shape or form.

It is just a whole bunch of sadness and pain Sad

My heart breaks for her family and what they are going through now. I thank Hashem that my brother can't write well because I am sure he would love to sell his fictional memoirs.

bamamama

Mon, Jan 27 2014, 1:26 pm

amother wrote:

1. If you don't personally know each and every one of the people being discussed (tangentially doesn't count. I know lots of people tangentially and, in fact, know nothing really about them), then you have no business commenting on what's truth and what's not.

2. Nice mudslinging, amother. "People who go OTD are all liars and will be easily forgotten." You go ahead with that idea if it helps you sleep at night. The people I know who've gone OTD have raised some really horrifying issues in some of our communities and unless those are addressed, the communities in question will continue to hemorrhage. But you just keep right on dismissing and sweeping things under the rug. Good for you.

bamamama

Mon, Jan 27 2014, 1:42 pm

You know, all the amothers who are flinging about the idea that Leah is lying or is stretching the truth...you do realize that *you* are part of the problem, right? You are refusing to believe that there's any other way to look at your community than your own rose-coloured view.

Some things are just horrifying to outsiders and that's how it always will be. I once tried to explain kashrut to a non-Jewish friend. In the middle of my explanation I could see she was trying hard to understand but also trying not to give away that she thought it was ridiculous. Things can have value to you and seem totally ridiculous to others. I'd definitely put taharat hamishpacha in that category. I can't imagine having to explain it with a straight face to someone not-Jewish or not-frum.

Case in point: the Mormon Temple garment. Outsiders laugh and call it "magic underwear" because it really does seem ridiculous that you need to wear special underwear for God, right? But to Mormons it's pretty sacred. They can only buy the temple garment if they are members in good standing.

One man's religion is another man's comedy. Or tragedy. That's the way the world works. Add to it that some of our strictures really do put women in a second class position from the view of secular society, and it's no wonder Leah and Deborah got applause.

You can choose to accept and live with something. People will always judge.

amother

Mon, Jan 27 2014, 1:51 pm

bamamama wrote:

I am the amother with the OTD brother. My brother's lies most of them have nothing to do with religion but making up what my parents did among other things.

It is the treatment to their family that is awful, it has nothing to do with kashrus. Bottom line he does not want to take responsibility for his mistakes so he creates stories so he can blame his family.

Normal people who choose not to be frum despite they were raised that way don't go around dragging their family through the mud. They try to maintain a family relationship. The narcissistic ones hurt all they can so they can get what they want.

BlueRose52

Mon, Jan 27 2014, 2:03 pm

All those who dismiss Vincent, and those like her (Feldman, Auslander, Deen, all the bloggers, et al) as total liars, do you think that what they describe is impossible? Or just that you believe their particular situation isn't like they say it is?

The fact is that every week, more and more, the evidence is mounting about so many horrible attitudes and experiences that are prevalent in our communities. A few weeks ago we had Mishpacha telling us that people are actually asking gedolim to daven for their OTD children to die! Last week, a popular OTD blogger did a daily update of the horrific physical abuse he endured daily when he was a bochur in yeshiva, and others who were students there corroborated it. These things are going on, it's indisputable. So why are we so insistent on dismissing these stories when they come from someone who claims to have experienced it themselves? Who do you think you're actually helping when you write these people off as cranks, liars, messed-up, attention seekers, etc. You think you're actually helping the community? Like when the first murmurings of molestation was starting to appear and people insisted those people were all messed up liars too?

The really ironic thing is that if people stopped dismissing these people as liars and actually took to heart what their stories are telling us about our communities, there would be much less such stories ever happening in the first place. Isn't that what we really want?

leah233

Mon, Jan 27 2014, 2:09 pm

The really ironic thing is that if people stopped dismissing these people as liars and actually took to heart what their stories are telling us about our communities, there would be much less such stories ever happening in the first place. Isn't that what we really want?

Five-Ten years ago I did in fact take these people seriously and to heart.Bur personal experience with the OTD crowd no longer allows me to.

As the joke goes "who do you believe me or your own ears"

BlueRose52

Mon, Jan 27 2014, 2:10 pm

amother wrote:

Normal people who choose not to be frum despite they were raised that way don't go around dragging their family through the mud. They try to maintain a family relationship. The narcissistic ones hurt all they can so they can get what they want.

Of course! Why can't people who were treated horribly by their families (and who are to this day still looked down upon), why can't THEY still speak nicely and respectfully about their families? So narcissistic of them!

I'm truly sorry that your brother is treating your family unfairly and horribly. But that's not how it always is in these situations. Sadly, there's plenty of truth in what these people are saying.

BlueRose52

Mon, Jan 27 2014, 2:16 pm

I'm reminded of that famous story about the Chofetz Chaim, where he was in court about something, and the lawyer was saying all sorts of stories about him to attest to his scrupulous honesty. At the end the judge said something like, "I find it hard to believe all these stories about this man are true, but one thing I know for sure - they don't tell stories like that about you and me."

We should be asking ourselves very seriously, "Why are these the stories we keep hearing about the frum world?"

BlueRose52

Mon, Jan 27 2014, 2:29 pm

leah233 wrote:

"Why are these the stories they are telling about the frum world?"

Because it provides them an excuse to leave it and because they can be sure those who hear will be receptive and sympathetic.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised at this view. I believed it too for many years. I guess if that's really what you believe, there's nothing to say to change your mind.

But one question: I suppose if some messed up OTDer said that his parents davened for him to die, we could write it off as an attention seeker making some outrageous accusations to garner attention and justify his yetzer hara, but what can we use to dismiss it when it's a gadol who says it?

amother

Mon, Jan 27 2014, 2:32 pm

BlueRose52 wrote:

I hear about evil people in all societies and all religions. No one hear is denying that there are people who masquerade as frum and have hurt people.

I just don't believe people who are caught in lies, twist facts around and they use their stories for profit and humiliate the ones who love them.

BlueRose52

Mon, Jan 27 2014, 2:35 pm

amother wrote:

It sounds like what you're saying is that yes, we admit we have problems, but the people who publicly point out those problems are lying.

amother

Mon, Jan 27 2014, 2:51 pm

If they have a good story to tell, then tell it and we will listen. Surely you acknowledge that the frum world has made considerable strides in listening and addressing problems lately.

When someone exagerates their story its because they are afraid that their unembellished version is not worthy of notice. And because they exagerate it makes it difficult to take seriously.

I would be intersted in a real raw honest story. I would listen.

bamamama

Mon, Jan 27 2014, 2:51 pm

amother wrote:

So you know ahead of time who is lying and who isn't? Wow. My kids told me his sister hit him. Is he lying?

BlueRose52

Mon, Jan 27 2014, 3:03 pm

amother wrote:

If they have a good story to tell, then tell it and we will listen. Surely you acknowledge that the frum world has made considerable strides in listening and addressing problems lately.

Indeed, I think they have made strides, but these strides are a result of the effect that people like these authors and the bloggers and all the other people who they wish would shut up and go away have had on the community!

I don't think any of the changes that have occurred are a result of a purely internal recognition of a need for change. It's almost always the pressure from outsiders which forces the community to finally face a problem they have tried for so hard to ignore (or deny).

chavamom

Mon, Jan 27 2014, 3:10 pm

BlueRose52 wrote:

I'm not disputing that they kicked her out, which I'm sure was really awful for her. But it seems like a gross misrepresentation to portray them as if they just left her on the street to fend for herself.

They set up her older sister similarly: found them a job, an apartment and paid the first months rent. You can disagree with their parenting, but they were not kicking her out and this set-up had nothing to do with her "rebellious" choices.

dimyona

Mon, Jan 27 2014, 3:12 pm

I know that the discussion has meandered to a general discussion of OTD's, but based on the reviews I've read, this book is not about the frum community or its problems. It's about Leah's life and struggles, and although they may be exaggerated or incomplete, I'm not sure how that's relevant to other accounts and polemics against Orthodox lifestyles.

She writes about struggling in a scary city, her family's reactions to her nonconformist choices, and in general, a very personal account of her life as an individual.

I don't see this book as comparable to Auslander, Feldman, or many of the other angry and frustrated rants about the frum community. I don't see any salacious libel about mangled p*nises, or other unrooted claims about Orthodoxy. Whether these other stories have merit or not is irrelevant; Leah's book is simply not about frum people. It's about her.

What difference does it make whether her parents paid one month of rent, or any other details in this story? What's the big deal? There's no need to get defensive about the facts. She's not claiming that the frum community threw her out onto the streets; it was her family. I can understand their frustration about her book if these details are indeed untrue, but I think we should all take a step back before we rush to any judgements or defenses.