What did our grandmothers do before double ovens?

OOTBubby

Tue, Dec 01 2015, 6:44 am

amother wrote:

For the first dozen years or so I was married I had one sink and one oven. I managed. There was always a backlog of dishes to be washed and a line of things waiting for the oven.
When we moved I got myself a nice big kitchen with 3 sinks /dishwashers, two ovens and lots and lots of counter space. I love it! I'd probably have done the same even if I didn't keep kosher!

I do a lot of cooking and baking and "crazy" stuff like canning, pickling, baking my own breads etc... that take up tons of space. Often I'll have all 3 dishwashers and both ovens going, all at once. The other week I baked 30lbs of bread at once and made 10 lbs of saerkraut. All while cooking supper (fleishigs) and the kids were doing their own thing on the milchigs side. I found myself wishing for a larger kitchen :-p
Of course it's not a necessity! And yes, my kids know that because they remember the constant juggling of the old house. But it sure is nice. :-)

Also, I spent way, way less than 6 figures on my kitchen. Plain stainless steel sinks, simple but functional standalone ranges, decent, non fancy dishwashers. No "panels" covering everything. Pleasing to look at but most importantly, functional.

I am in the process of building a new home. Now, my old home where I raised a large family had a huge kitchen with 4 ovens (double builtin for fleishig, singles for each milchig and pareve), 2 cooktops, 2 microwaves, 2 dishwashers and 2 sinks.

Now, as empty nesters, I've changed my priorities some what. I'm going with the above except for 3 ovens, a double builtin for fleishig & a parve and a single for milchig and I'm adding a pareve area (it was impossible for me to handle pareve with lots of kids cooking and household help in the kitchen) with a 3rd dishwasher and sink. While my cooking isn't constantly as heavy duty as it was before, now at the times of the year that my family visits it is even heavier.

Edit: Yes, I am doing this. No, I do NOT need it. I find it is convenient for me and I like the set up. I can afford to do it and I can decide what to spend money on. There are other things I chose not to do because I don't find them worthwhile. To me a kitchen like this is worthwhile.

happybeingamom

Tue, Dec 01 2015, 6:56 am

OOTBubby wrote:

Enjoy it!

Put in pot fillers, I so regretted that I did not put them in.

Maya

Tue, Dec 01 2015, 6:56 am

5mom wrote:

I think it's very important to consider halacha when you remodel a kitchen, and if you don't know much, consulting a rabbi seems like a good idea. But choose a rabbi who will apply halacha and not just spend your money. It's totally unacceptable to give orders without explaining why.

It's basic knowledge of halacha that everyone has, such as two sinks and ovens and dishwashers if needed for that particular family, not something that requires such extreme attention to detail that this rabbi applied.

OOTBubby

Tue, Dec 01 2015, 6:58 am

happybeingamom wrote:

Enjoy it!

Put in pot fillers, I so regretted that I did not put them in.

So interesting you should suggest that. That is one thing I decided not to do. First of all, I don't like how they look. Secondly, my cooktops are near my sinks. And lastly, I find the problem to be dealing with emptying the full, cooked, hot pot rather than filling it with cold water and putting it on the stove.

But, to each their own.

amother

Crimson

Tue, Dec 01 2015, 7:20 am

I have no issues with anyone spending money they have in any manner they choose. If one cooks a lot, there is much to be said for spending money on the kitchen of one's dreams. However, it is a luxury - a convenience - something nice just as any other luxury makes life more comfortable. But it's a lifestyle choice and should be viewed as such.

However, I do take serious issue when an expensive luxury is deemed to be a religious necessity. It is stuff like this, IMHO, that makes people ...... fill in the blanks. I find it shocking that a Rav would mandate such an expenditure because it's "nice" Question

And so congregants in his shul who don't have or can't afford are not as "nice" and less worthy?

happybeingamom

Tue, Dec 01 2015, 7:52 am

OOTBubby wrote:

My DH hated it, I had it in my old kitchen but he convinced me not to put it in the new house. The contractor agreed with him, he said the pipe will freeze in the winter. I had so much going on in my life then that I was in no mood to argue about it.

mha3484

Tue, Dec 01 2015, 8:57 am

There is a market outside the community. I grew up with double ovens (old models but still two of them), my grandmother has double ovens, my other grandmother had 2 sets of double ovens. None of them keep kosher. The people in my family who enjoy cooking and hosting all have them.

A family that cooks and hosts a lot like ours does can always use the appliances. My grandmother had super small double ovens and got so frustrated that she could not fit enough food in them redid her kitchen just to fit a bigger set.

yaelinIN

Tue, Dec 01 2015, 9:15 am

mha3484 wrote:

I think there might be a market for such things but your average non-frum family in 2015 is not entertaining the same way we do (multiple families of larger than average size, Thanksgiving style meals every week). When I bought a house in a community without many frum people, I thought to put in another stove/dishwasher, but knowing that a non-Jewish family of four would probably be the next owners (and they were), they may not like the kitchen as much. When I buy a new house, I will have to make that decision again iy"H.

mha3484

Tue, Dec 01 2015, 9:28 am

Its funny. I guess I grew up differently. My parents were the first to marry and have kids so we had almost all family events at our house. My mother easily had 50 people for Pesach. She hosted most jewish holidays as well as thanksgiving and parties on Jan 1st, birthdays whatever. There were always a lot of people around. I think a lot of our friends were the same. I am the total opposite. The thought of that makes me breakout in hives but that is a different subject.

imaima

Tue, Dec 01 2015, 12:11 pm

amother wrote:

Assuming our grandmothers and great grandmothers (and continue to go back many generations) didn't have a double oven in their kitchen--how did they cook both meat and dairy? Did they really kasher their oven between cooking meat and dairy each and every time, or have the rules of kashrut become more stringent in recent years?

It's hard to imagine but some people don't cook so intensively that they need to have everything in the oven at the same time

OOTBubby

Tue, Dec 01 2015, 12:36 pm

yaelinIN wrote:

For those people getting 3 dishwashers, 3 ovens, etc, do you worry about resale value or do you assume you will sell within the frum community?

Not at all -- I am building the house for what I want and if it has a negative impact on resale value that will just be offset by having it how I wanted it when I lived there. Though, the fact of the matter is that within my lifetime (and probably even my children's and further) it is quite likely any house in the area I am talking about will stay within the frum community.

zaq

Tue, Dec 01 2015, 1:56 pm

champion wrote:

I am far from being a grandmother. I dont own a double oven. thank hashem that you are so spoiled you cant imagine anybody in the past two generations making do without such an extra. huff.....

Especially since in a PP she stated that she herself never had a double oven till she moved to her present home. If her memory is so frail that she cannot recall what she did relatively recently, I suggest she wastes no time but consults posthaste with a specialist in memory loss.

amother

Purple

Tue, Dec 01 2015, 4:08 pm

That triple-kitchen thing reminds me of a story that illustrates beautifully how one person's shtick can morph into another person's "halacha" because people don't ask a halachik authority, they just make assumptions. This goes back to the days when people had to kasher their own meat. Mrs. A had a grooved wooden kashering board, while Mrs. B, who always knew better than everyone else, had a perforated board. Mrs. B told Mrs A that her kitchen is tref because the kashering board has to be perforated. Since this was a slur not only on Mrs. A but also on her mother from whom she learned, she suggested that she and Mrs. B go together to ask the rov. The rov informed them that grooves are perfectly fine. But if Mrs. A had chosen to believe Mrs. B rather than consult a halachik authority, she might have replaced or kashered half her kitchen for no reason, Mrs. B could have continued spreading her ignorance posing as piety, and a new "halacha" would have been born.

Amarante

Tue, Dec 01 2015, 4:14 pm

Rubber Ducky wrote:

Prep sinks and multiple ovens (or extra-large ranges with 2 ovens) are de rigueur in upper class non-Jewish homes with large kitchens. You will also find other niceties such as coffee stations and walk-in pantries.

I think two wall ovens are not unusual in large suburban homes and even what is called a prep sink in an island typically.

However, except among the very affluent two complete sets of kitchen appliances are extremely rare unless one is in the world of the one percentage.

The typical middle income family doesn't have that kind of kitchen.