What did our grandmothers do before double ovens?

amother

Aquamarine

Mon, Nov 30 2015, 1:57 pm

Assuming our grandmothers and great grandmothers (and continue to go back many generations) didn't have a double oven in their kitchen--how did they cook both meat and dairy? Did they really kasher their oven between cooking meat and dairy each and every time, or have the rules of kashrut become more stringent in recent years?

Maya

Mon, Nov 30 2015, 2:06 pm

Is it a given today that most people have two ovens? I don't think anyone in my immediate family has one.

I sometimes self clean for two or three hours, but I was told that heating the oven on 500degrees for one hour is enough for switching between meat and milk baking.

amother

Aquamarine

Mon, Nov 30 2015, 2:13 pm

chani8 wrote:

If you want to go way back, they used to put their cholents in the community ovens, right next to the neighbor's pot of treif stew.

Right. So why/how did we become so strict today?

amother

Goldenrod

Mon, Nov 30 2015, 2:17 pm

You can double seal with silver foil and bake as usual.
If you need the dish to bake uncovered, as long as the oven is clean and hasn't been used it 24 hours, you can just bake it uncovered. And you would need to wait another 24 hours to switch back with clean oven, or put clean oven to broil for 1 hour.

pesek zman

Mon, Nov 30 2015, 2:25 pm

You're kidding, right?

Everyone you know has a double oven?

No one I know does

Aside from the fact that I've always thought that the chumros have Come about as affluence has risen, do you really think your grandmother was making baked ziti? Mine certainly wasn't.

Last edited by pesek zman on Mon, Nov 30 2015, 2:29 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Aquamarine

Mon, Nov 30 2015, 2:26 pm

chani8 wrote:

And the reason why?? Because we asked for it. People want the chumrot. Out of yiras shamayim, they ask for more and more rules.

Ah. But do I need to follow these rules? I didn't ask for them. . . .

(No need to answer that.)

sky

Mon, Nov 30 2015, 2:30 pm

Until very recently having 2 ovens was a luxury. You can definitely cook\bake with a single oven. Very few (at least in America) follow the opinion that you cannot (in Israel it is a different story, but there very few have 2 ovens)

If one is covered it isn't such an issue.
If the dirt in the oven is burnt and inedible, even if one oven gave off steam, if the oven is left 24 hours it is okay. (and if there was no steam some say you don't even have to wait 24 hours). Or you can burn at 500 or broil for one hour to skip the 24 hour wait.

I find a double oven (I don't have one but I do have other alternatives) is convenient when baking for large families or crowds and want to bake challah or cake and keep it 100% pareve same time as baking meat or making a dairy supper while cooking for shabbos and having the convenience of not waiting or keeping track of what was in last.

Honestly, in Europe my grandmother's family probably cooked\baked no milchigs. And they ate very little chicken, only shabbos. otherwise they pretty much lived on beans, bread and vegetables.

mummiedearest

Mon, Nov 30 2015, 2:34 pm

amother wrote:

actually, many hold that you can use the oven as long as it is clean and has cooled for 2 hours.

amother

Scarlet

Mon, Nov 30 2015, 2:37 pm

Chumras, churmras and more chumras.
There are so many things that I was taught are technically okay but "we don't do" and recently my husband has been in smicha classes and is learning that so many of the things that we were taught we don't do we can do.
A few weeks ago I served parve cupcakes baked in clean fleishig oven after a dairy meal - I felt like I was serving my guests treyf. I was always told that this is a big no.
Clearly back in Poland where my grandparents lived in 2 room homes with families of 8 or 12 and were lucky to have one chicken to share amongst themselves to stretch for 2 shabbos meals they must not have ever dealt with this level of crazy we have today. They didn't have 2 ovens, that's for sure.

MagentaYenta

Mon, Nov 30 2015, 2:37 pm

amother wrote:

Ah. But do I need to follow these rules? I didn't ask for them. . . .

(No need to answer that.)

In Russia both my Grandmother and Great Grandmother had only wooden plates and utensils (spoons). None had running water and all water was hauled in from a spring. No light boxes for checking greens, no double ovens or disposable plates. Heck they didn't have a table cloth until they came to America.

amother

Yellow

Mon, Nov 30 2015, 2:42 pm

amother wrote:

To reiterate some of the other comments, I'm amazed you think you have to back a few generations to find people without double ovens.

GetReal

Mon, Nov 30 2015, 2:52 pm

Wait a minute. Having two ovens is not halacha. Mixing milk and meat and milk and chicken is. On an Orthodox forum, can we discuss HOW to keep the halachos and exactly what they are, without mocking it?

mummiedearest

Mon, Nov 30 2015, 2:58 pm

GetReal wrote:

actually, there was a time and place where chicken and milk were not considered a kashrus issue, much like fish and milk. it's not the same issue as milk and meat. just saying.

happybeingamom

Mon, Nov 30 2015, 3:01 pm

Two ovens is a convenience that I enjoy. It is not a Chumra, it just makes life easier, Horay!

Orthodox Judaism is Rabbinic Judaism and we are required to keep D'Rabanans and that is why we don't eat chicken with milk. D'Rabanans are not optional.

Chumrahs are when one chooses to follow the most stringent opinion even though it is not necessary. Some people like to keep Chumras because they want to do Mitzvos the "best way". Many of us choose to do a few mitzvos like that but not all because it is very difficult.

Many a time when people are ignorant in Halacha they will do it more stringently then needs to be done so they don't make a mistake. That is why it is very important to keep learning Halacha and have a very knowledgeable Posek.

GetReal

Mon, Nov 30 2015, 3:02 pm

mummiedearest wrote:

actually, there was a time and place where chicken and milk were not considered a kashrus issue, much like fish and milk. it's not the same issue as milk and meat. just saying.

But today it is. Not the same as milk and meat but it's part of halacha.