Sandals in Lakewood

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Sandals in Lakewood

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Chayalle

Wed, Jul 12 2017, 7:03 am

cnc wrote:

DVOM - just want to say you're one classy woman. This thread took a bit of a nasty turn, yet you're responding really nicely.

I totally agree, and not just on this thread. DVOM is really polite and thoughtful all over imamother. I've liked quite a few of her posts on a variety of topics.

saw50st8

Wed, Jul 12 2017, 7:11 am

crust wrote:

I have to go for a visit to Lakewood. I am very shocked by some responses in this thread. Isnt Lakewood huge and diverse?

From what I read here It looks like a little, single minded community where everyone has to do the same thing or they are subject to stares.
??

Lakewood is a fairly large community. If by diverse you mean the narrow spectrum of yeshivish orthodoxy, then yes, it's diverse. That's not a problem if that's what you want. It's a positive if that's what you want. But DVOM seems to value being able to not conform.

Simple1

Wed, Jul 12 2017, 7:12 am

crust wrote:

I am not afraid that I'll be stared on as a visitor. Im just confused by what I always knew Lakewood to be and what I read here.

What did you always know Lakewood to be? It has been for a long time a yeshiva town - if anything, in recent years it's changing to be more diverse.

crust

Wed, Jul 12 2017, 7:22 am

saw50st8 wrote:

I thought the spectrum was not so narrow.
I don't know you. I don't know DVOM. I can only say by what I read.
Re the bolded. Nowhere in her posts did I see that she values being able to not conform. There is so much respect and tact coming through in her posts.
I really am confused. I'm ok that you tell me the spectrum is narrow, but I didn't know it was SO narrow.

Benny explained it to me. I'll assume you are from the old-timers who are bothered by the growing diversity.

saw50st8

Wed, Jul 12 2017, 7:28 am

crust wrote:

This is a quote from DVOM:
"If I started to conform to all the things Lakewood wants me to be, there would be no me left."

I'm not a Lakewood resident! I have no beef with the sandal issue (I'm MO and wear sandals all the time). I was just curious why someone who does not want to conform would choose a community that's known for conforming and value conforming. It's not a negative, it's a neutral. I absolutely respect her and I'm impressed by her posts, I was just curious.

amother

Magenta

Wed, Jul 12 2017, 7:35 am

As much as lakewood is diverse...its mostly yeshivish with women covering their legs. So much so that my son when seeing a frum lady with bare legs questioned me about it. It's not what he's used to seeing.

crust

Wed, Jul 12 2017, 7:42 am

saw50st8 wrote:

This is a quote from DVOM:
"If I started to conform to all the things Lakewood wants me to be, there would be no me left.".

The bolded makes it clear that it's not that she values being able to not conform. She's simply stating that if she conforms there will be no self left.
And its true.

PinkFridge

Wed, Jul 12 2017, 8:26 am

benny wrote:

It definitely started out as a pretty insulated community where tznius and learning were very high values. Then the cheap housing boom happened and it became very diverse. It was a very hard adjustment to all those who chose the insulated community and it's values. Many of the new ppl coming didn't care for these values much. They also didn't show much respect for the community. You gotta see both sides.

I hear this. I think that much of early Lakewooders was open enough (out of towny enough?) to put up with some level of diversity. But when it comes to values, as much a concernas tznius if not more is the materialism. Because there are more sides than "both". There are less yeshivish people who yes, will have problems working with schools, but who eschew the materialism that permeated the original Lakewood bubble and as such, make good citizens in many ways.

ETA: You have no idea how much angst I had before hitting spend. Loshon hara or innuendo or unconstructive discussion about people and places is not something I want to contribute to. Please know that I totally get you and see the beauty in your vision. Being machshiv Torah - which of course we know the 5-9 learners do too (and the serious 5-9ers often have the utmost respect for the 9-5ers, I.e. the full-time learners who of course learn past 5:00*) - bring bracha to everyone as does tznius, but we should mourn the lack of tznius of conspicuous consumption as much as the Hot Chanikeit.

And I am NOT including DVOM in that last sentence. I "liked" the posts that called her classy.

ETA:* It does work both ways. Really.

Last edited by PinkFridge on Wed, Jul 12 2017, 8:45 am; edited 1 time in total

Chayalle

Wed, Jul 12 2017, 8:40 am

PinkFridge wrote:

but we should mourn the lack of tznius of conspicuous consumption as much as the Hot Chanikeit.

Totally this.

crust

Wed, Jul 12 2017, 8:50 am

What is the Hot Chanikeit?

PinkFridge

Wed, Jul 12 2017, 9:54 am

Hot Chani is a term used for a woman who pushes the boundaries - too long, glamourous sheitel, clothes that might technically cover (or don't) but that are too tight, loud, etc. And who wants to be noticed.

And I was conflating a few things. I'm still struggling with how to express myself.
Every year after the Bnos Melachim video on the way home I'd remind my girls how tznius is more than the clothes we wear, how one of our neighbors, who doesn't cover her hair and who does wear pants is tzniusdik in her own way because she is so unprovocative. Be that as it may, while I hope they project the same tznius she does, I hope it will be within the bounds of the rules they've been taught in school and at home.

The question is, we all appreciate cultural norms, like no one would go into a mosque wearing xyz, lehavdil in to Meah Shearim, etc. So there are boundaries. It is clear that what is jarring in some communities is not jarring in others. I don't know where lines are drawn, but I guess it's reasonable to expect that everyone here is on the same page as far as the need for inner AND outer tznius. How much a school can request/demand is also not something b/w. But I think we can be respectful of some standards even if they're not ours.

Edited to fix up some grammar I just noticed.

Last edited by PinkFridge on Wed, Jul 12 2017, 4:20 pm; edited 2 times in total

MagentaYenta

Wed, Jul 12 2017, 3:45 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

Where did trousers come in to this thread?

They can be considered pushing the envelope, like green toenails and magenta hair.

dancingqueen

Wed, Jul 12 2017, 3:53 pm

amother wrote:

How can a young boy tell the difference between sheer stockings and bare legs?

amother

cornflower

Wed, Jul 12 2017, 4:03 pm

dancingqueen wrote:

How can a young boy tell the difference between sheer stockings and bare legs?

It's not that hard with open toe sandals...

amother

Magenta

Wed, Jul 12 2017, 4:39 pm

My son wasnt so young. Probably in 4th or 5th grade.Person was wearing flip flops...either way its pretty easy to tell if someones legs are bare.

DVOM

Wed, Jul 12 2017, 6:55 pm

saw50st8 wrote:

DVOM,

I'm curious why you chose Lakewood to live in if conformity is not your thing. There are many wonderful orthodox communities that allow for a lot more diversity.

Your sandals may not be an issue now, but might be when your kids are getting into high school.

Hi everyone! It's OP. The kids are all in bed... time to chat!

So, why did we choose Lakewood? Good question... I see it as two questions though. Why we decided to come, and why we've decided to stay.

My husband was a quintessential high school drop out. The yeshivish Israeli system he'd grown up in didn't work for him. He came to the states to find his way at 17 and ended up moving into the basement of his only American relatives, who happened to live in Lakewood.

Fast forward 6 years. Before moving to Lakewood a week after our wedding, I'd only been to Lakewood twice or three times, for short shopping/meet the friends visits with my fiance. I didn't really know too much about the place, other than it was a very frum community. Well, I considered myself to be "very frum", I assumed I'd fit right in. I wasn't thrilled to be moving away from my family, but we had one very big tie to Lakewood: my husband's rabbi lives here. Our rav is like a father to my husband, and a grandfather to our kids. My husband has learned with Rabbi H. most days for the past 15 years. My husband had been very hurt and disillusioned from his experiences in elementary and high school in Israel, so you can imagine that this relationship with his spiritual mentor was not one that either of us was willing to give up. He also had a good job here, not something to throw away lightly. This sums up the reasons for our decision to move to Lakewood: ignorance, and our wonderful Rabbi.

A year or two into married life in Lakewood I began to realize that we really didn't fit in here. Still, my husband had his rav and his before and after work learning partners and a very lovely group of like-minded friends. As time passed, we developed more ties to the community. My oldest started school. I now have two boys in yeshiva. They are thriving. I have a wonderful, flexible, well-paying job.

This year, for a lot of reasons, was a big decision year for us. We could have moved out of Lakewood for the start of the next school year; instead, we chose to buy a house here, to put down roots. This was an agonizing choice but made sense for so many reasons. This might be why these questions of community acceptance and conformity have been on my mind more recently. I think in the back of my mind I always held onto the idea that living here was temporary, and that at some point we'd move on. Buying a house has made Lakewood feel much more permanent to me. This is my community now, my home. I'd like to find a happy way to live here, to belong here, while still being true to myself and at the very least, inoffensive to the community at large. I don't know if that's possible. I suppose time will tell.

DVOM

Wed, Jul 12 2017, 7:04 pm

benny wrote:

This is an interesting viewpoint that makes a lot of sense to me. You are correct in assuming that I don't share all of the same values as the 'old Lakewood' community. I still think though that we probably have more values in common than values that we disagree on. Want to share some of the values you hold dear? I'd be happy to tell you some of mine. There has to be some common ground, some way for us to exist together respectfully and harmoniously, without the conversation ending with: "well, we were here first, so you really should be doing this our way."

DVOM

Wed, Jul 12 2017, 7:10 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

Never heard this term before!

What's funny is, sandals notwithstanding, I am the dorkiest dresser you could imagine. I love loose, comfortable clothing, fabrics that are soft and flowy, flowers, and color. Picture a 34-year-old cross between a hippie and a grandmother. That would probably best describe my style.

DVOM

Wed, Jul 12 2017, 7:12 pm

saw50st8 wrote:

Hi Saw,

I don't know if I value not conforming, as in, enjoy doing the opposite of what everyone else is doing. I just like to do what makes sense to me, what works for my family. If that means letting my son go to shul Shabbos morning dressed like batman... well I guess that does stand out a bit here in Lakewood.

Last edited by DVOM on Wed, Jul 12 2017, 7:26 pm; edited 2 times in total

PinkFridge

Wed, Jul 12 2017, 7:24 pm

DVOM wrote:

[/b]

Hi Saw,

I don't know if I value not conforming, as in, enjoy doing the opposite of what everyone else is doing. I just like to do what makes sense to me, what works for my family. If that means letting my son go to shul Shabbos morning dressed like batman... well I guess that does stand out a bit here in Lakewood.

How should I say this....I was never the matching type, and my kids look at a lot of the old pictures and wonder how I let them wear whatever they wear...but sometimes we do have to draw lines.

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