Do you listen to non-jewish music?

JRKmommy

Thu, May 25 2006, 10:22 am

I don't lump all "non-Jewish music" together.

Sure, there is some horrible stuff out there with nasty lyrics, glorifying violence and degrading women. We don't have that around.

However, there is instrumental jazz, all sorts of folk music (I also loved celtic!), classical, even positive pop songs (I love India Arie's "Video" lyrics - "I'm not your average girl on a video, my worth is not determined by the size of my clothes").

I agree that music without lyrics can certainly affect you - but you'd have the judge that effect on the specific piece of music and specific individual.

I also don't think it's possible to even define "Jewish" music. It can't be about just having a Jewish composer - by that definition, plenty of popular music, including the song "White x-mas" and much of the stuff from heavy metal band Kiss would be "Jewish music".

The fact is that music is a fluid medium, and any songwriter can be influenced by so many elements. We don't have specifically Jewish instruments. Sephardic music sounds different than Ashkenazi music - the respective Arabic and European influences are obvious. Conversely, there is Jewish influence in unlikely places, such as American "Black" music. [There was a documentary series "Rhythym and Jews" in my city earlier this month which explored this theme]

3ver

Thu, May 25 2006, 10:57 am

[quote]I agree with you, but so too, think of classical music, non Jewish, it can get into your neshama, the tunes can actually take your neshama away to such a high place.
when I listen to celtic, or music from ireland, my neshama just talks to me and says wow, and you know what I think about when I hear such music? I think about how beautiful ireland must be and how amazing HaShem is and how he makes places in this world that are beyond what any of us can even imagine in terms of beauty.

It's not about what you think when you listen to the music... It's beyond your consciousness. It's your neshoma being affected. And its precisely because the music is so deep and so much thought and feeling from the inner depths of the composer was put into it (especially classical music) that when you listen to it you are actually connecting your neshoma to that composers soul... If the composer was a non Jew - why would you want your neshoma connecting to his soul? Obviously connecting to a non Jews soul - so a soul that is a separate category of a Jews neshama will drag you down - even if in your mind you’re thinking how beautiful and wonderful hashem is. It's beyond your thoughts - the effects are a lot deeper. And maybe that’s why so many people feel guilty letting their babies and young children - even though they don’t understand... because it’s deeper than thought.
It's obviously hard to ditch the addiction to non Jewish music - but at least everyone should realize that it's not good and that clarity might actually help you "wean" off eventually.

chen

Thu, May 25 2006, 11:06 am

JRK, you're so right. For reasons that are mostly cultural/political and only partly aesthetic, I am turned off by most Middle Eastern music. However, if I listen closely and discover that what I thought was arabic is actually a temani guy singing zemiros, this irritating, monotonous, shrill sound becomes desirable. Why does the music shrivel my soul when I think it's arabic and nourish it when I find out it's jewish? Why does the smell of certain food cooking offend my nostrils when I assume it's tref and make my stomach rumble when I find out it's kosher? It's one's own mental associations that make the music good or bad.

BTW, it may interest some members to know that the niggun for mo-oz tzur that is popular in North America was originally a german song with very distressing lyrics.

Last edited by chen on Thu, May 25 2006, 11:33 am; edited 1 time in total

JRKmommy

Thu, May 25 2006, 11:20 am

[quote="3ver"]

Quote:

I agree with you, but so too, think of classical music, non Jewish, it can get into your neshama, the tunes can actually take your neshama away to such a high place.
when I listen to celtic, or music from ireland, my neshama just talks to me and says wow, and you know what I think about when I hear such music? I think about how beautiful ireland must be and how amazing HaShem is and how he makes places in this world that are beyond what any of us can even imagine in terms of beauty.

It's not about what you think when you listen to the music... It's beyond your consciousness. It's your neshoma being affected. And its precisely because the music is so deep and so much thought and feeling from the inner depths of the composer was put into it (especially classical music) that when you listen to it you are actually connecting your neshoma to that composers soul... If the composer was a non Jew - why would you want your neshoma connecting to his soul? Obviously connecting to a non Jews soul - so a soul that is a separate category of a Jews neshama will drag you down - even if in your mind you’re thinking how beautiful and wonderful hashem is. It's beyond your thoughts - the effects are a lot deeper. And maybe that’s why so many people feel guilty letting their babies and young children - even though they don’t understand... because it’s deeper than thought.
It's obviously hard to ditch the addiction to non Jewish music - but at least everyone should realize that it's not good and that clarity might actually help you "wean" off eventually.

So, if I follow that logic, does listening to KISS or Gene Simmons' solo albums become a good thing b/c it's connects me to the soul of a Jew? Rolling Eyes

(For those who don't know - here's a link to more info about him http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_Simmons)

shabbatiscoming

Thu, May 25 2006, 11:34 am

[quote="3ver"]

Quote:

It's not about what you think when you listen to the music... It's beyond your consciousness. It's your neshoma being affected. And its precisely because the music is so deep and so much thought and feeling from the inner depths of the composer was put into it (especially classical music) that when you listen to it you are actually connecting your neshoma to that composers soul... If the composer was a non Jew - why would you want your neshoma connecting to his soul? Obviously connecting to a non Jews soul - so a soul that is a separate category of a Jews neshama will drag you down - even if in your mind you’re thinking how beautiful and wonderful hashem is. It's beyond your thoughts - the effects are a lot deeper. And maybe that’s why so many people feel guilty letting their babies and young children - even though they don’t understand... because it’s deeper than thought.
It's obviously hard to ditch the addiction to non Jewish music - but at least everyone should realize that it's not good and that clarity might actually help you "wean" off eventually.

you can say what you want about what YOUR neshama is thinking and where it is going, but I know that with my, I dont even know half of the time who composed the song that I am listening to. I am most certainly NOT thinking about the composer when listening to kenny g or celtic music. I know that when I listen to kenny g, I usually think about high school and seminary (its reminising music and then about places in Israel for the seminary time).
when you listen to a song, you are thinking about the composer and not the words or lyrics or tune? I find that VERY hard to believe.
I would never feel guilty letting a child listen to beautiful non jewish music. there are some songs that are just too beautiful to pass up.
also, what you said about composers, so does that mean that if there are bands of non Jewish music but the composer or singers are jewish then it is ok? that is essentially what you are saying. so that makes simon and garfunkel ok - jews. the band KISS is made up of jewish boys......

3ver

Thu, May 25 2006, 11:34 am

[quote="JRKmommy"]

3ver wrote:

Quote:

So, if I follow that logic, does listening to KISS or Gene Simmons' solo albums become a good thing b/c it's connects me to the soul of a Jew? Rolling Eyes

(For those who don't know - here's a link to more info about him http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_Simmons)

I see what you’re saying - but Jews who act like non Jews - though they still have the pintele yid - neshama in them - they’re still on a very low level and there is a lot of impurity in their soul- ideally wouldn’t you only want to connect your neshama and your children’s neshama to great people or at least someone descent? I'm not all that frum and naive - if you read my earlier post - at one point I was obsessed with non Jewish music - and I'm just speaking from what I learned and what I have experienced.

shabbatiscoming

Thu, May 25 2006, 11:45 am

[quote="3ver"]

JRKmommy wrote:

3ver wrote:

Quote:

So, if I follow that logic, does listening to KISS or Gene Simmons' solo albums become a good thing b/c it's connects me to the soul of a Jew? Rolling Eyes

(For those who don't know - here's a link to more info about him http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_Simmons)

amother

Thu, May 25 2006, 12:29 pm

When my son was inYeshiva HS,he was very into secular music.He was careful to listen to certain artists with "good" lyrics or instrumentals.His Rosh Yeshiva took his mp3 player to listen to it. My ds had a hard time understanding what the objections was. "after all some of the artists are very religious & don't sing about bad things" His Rosh Yeshiva explained that the music is about the the composer & what their intent was & that it affects you too.
Please understand where I am coming from.Don't tell my kids But I sometimes enjoy it too.My dh has collections (& actually likes rap music,gag!!) but not in front of the kids.Also if this is the biggest rebelion you get you're lucky.But it does affect your neshama.
My ds is in Yeshiva now & with maturity has seen that.He still doesn't feel it with instrumentals but takes his Rebbes word for it .

3ver

Thu, May 25 2006, 1:04 pm

Quote:

ok, so here you say that wouldnt we want our children to connect to great ppl? cant there be great ppl who are also not jewish? there are MANY ppl in this workd who are amazingly great and influencial and can be great models for not just children but just in general.
you said you have experienced this with music. how do you mean? that you have connected to the composer not the tunes?[/quote

here's my earlier post:
[quote="3ver"]I grew up with jewish music - then as a teen I rebelled a bit and was obsessed with non-jewish music.. even once I got out of my rebellion stage - It took me a very long time to stop listening to non-jewish music since I was so hooked. So it was on and off- but the amazing thing is I could actually feel the connection to the music was dragging me down. I was hooked to a specific band and it brought out that something in me when I listened to it. All I want to say is - when you listen to music - its really powerful and you definitely do connect to the composer. With simple, shallow, pop music many times you don't notice it, but if the music is intense enough you can actually feel it.

Yes, there are many great non jews out there - some who live their lives in more positive ways than Jews - but that still doesn’t change the status of a Neshama to their soul. It's not discriminating - its just part of the different levels of creation- and a Jew’s soul is at the top rank. So even if you're connecting to a great [gentile] -you’re still lowering yourself.

and to answer your question about connecting to the composer and not the tunes... they’re both almost identical- that's why I'm saying when you connect to the tune/music - its the same as connecting to the person who made it up - because music is so spiritual and close to the soul. Hope this clarifies

3ver

Thu, May 25 2006, 1:14 pm

You know its interesting - once I looked back at the different stages I went through as a teen... its kinda freaky to see the different music I was into at each stage - it reflected so clearly what I was going through at each point in life.
Just to give you an example - I remember a friend once telling me that the best thing to do when he got mad - was to get into the car and drive listening to blasting loud Metallica. you chanel your emotion into the songs that bring out that emotion- and instead of controlling it, you let it come out and control you. And its scary cuz you dont know where it could take you. I happend to be obsessed with a singer who actually committed suicide so you can imagine the kind of apathetic, sad, who gives a hoot about life... kinda music I was connecting with...

shabbatiscoming

Thu, May 25 2006, 1:18 pm

GR wrote:

Quote:

there are MANY ppl in this workd who are amazingly great and influencial and can be great models for not just children but just in general.

yes there are.
but Jews are different than non-Jews, and not only spiritually, but our actual physical bodies were chosen by Hashem too.

what?????
um, im sorry to say but HaShem made everyone's guf, not only the jews and I am not saying that Jews are not different from non Jews, but HaShem picked everyone to be in the body that he formed for them....

amother

Thu, May 25 2006, 1:20 pm

Just wanted to say that non jewish music was what set me on the road going downhill. It was a few years back when I was in high school and a relative of mine was over and asked if she could download a few songs she liked from napster. I listened to them with her and after she left started hanging out on napster, downloaded more songs and met some other frum people on there who were disillusioned with the frum way of life. This led to a very dark part of my life which I dont like to think about. I can only pinpoint the start of my downhill treck to when I started listening to non-jewish music and the thoughts it started to put in my head. Now I'm frum again but this time its bec I want to be. hardest thing for me to give up was th music. it took time but now I actually enjoy listening to popular frum singers.

3ver

Thu, May 25 2006, 1:30 pm

ytwh1 wrote:

GR wrote:

Quote:

there are MANY ppl in this workd who are amazingly great and influencial and can be great models for not just children but just in general.

yes there are.
but Jews are different than non-Jews, and not only spiritually, but our actual physical bodies were chosen by Hashem too.

I actually once learned what she is talking about. I dont think she ment Hashem didnt make their guf... Hashem made everones body and chose for each soul and each neshama a body... when it says hashem chose the jews over the non jews - so the question is asked when you choose something it has to be equal in value -then you choose one over the other - but how could hashem choose if our neshama is not equal to their soul- that's not considered choosing since its of a lower level. So what they answer is hashem chose our bodies over thiers ... this is to show us that not only is our neshama preciouse - but our bodies are as well and we should value it.

Ruchel

Thu, May 25 2006, 3:11 pm

tweety99 wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

Imho as long as you check what kind of lyrics the music involve, the children are fine.
I listen to everything from Chava Alberstein and Eli Mellul to French pop and American trendy singers.

most non jewish music nowadays has disgusting and unsuitable lyrics. 10 yrs ago it was different.

I won't let my future kids listen to disgusting lyrics. But as you said "older" music is (often) ok, and also lyrics they don't understand (in English for example for French kids).
Of course I will only encourage them to listen to Jewish things, but I'm not going to stop listening to what I listen to now (unless disgusting lyrics).