When you walk into someone's house and it's........

Log in / Sign Up

List of Forums + New Post Recipe Box Usergroups Following My Posts Bookmarks

Private Messages Advanced Search Rules New User Guide FAQ Advertise Contact Us

Forum -> Relationships -> Manners & Etiquette

Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Next

View latest: 24h 48h 72h

Hashem_Yaazor

Wed, Jan 13 2010, 9:01 am

BinahYeteirah wrote:

Personally, I think keeping a larger house clean is actually easier.

I agree.

I tell my husband I sometimes get so overwhelmed by how small my kitchen is, that I don't have room to put things elsewhere so I can clean what I want to clean...it's like I can't move in order to do what I need to do.
If I had more space, I'd have more harchavas hada'as and be able to move things around, clean better, work with what I had as opposed to being cramped with my only counter space being taken up by drying dishes, etc...

And because we have very little living space in proportion to family size, my kids' room is full of boxes of clothing that doesn't fit in drawers and makes it look more cluttered.
Our one bathroom has a pile of bathtoys under the sink because I have no where else to put them.
Our living room has toys the kids are playing with -- they're usually put away at night, but OP just might not see what it looks like at the end of the day after a clean up spree...

mummy

Wed, Jan 13 2010, 9:09 am

freidasima, you made me laugh. I thought I was the only person who cleaned the bath while taking a shower or cleaning the sink while brushing teeth. I don't always have time to do a full scrub down at once so this method works. I also keep a pack of wipes in each room. I call it my luxury, but when a spill is cleaned straight away it is alot easier then scubbing dried up spills.

I would love a thread on keeping the house tidy tips. I'm sure different people have ideas that others wouldn't think of.

Hashem_Yaazor

Wed, Jan 13 2010, 9:10 am

BTW, like Happy Mom one of my fears is that people will judge me based on the state of my home at the time they come in when it may or may not be reflective of what it usually is like.
Do I never wash my daughter's high chair tray? No! But if you walked in at 5:30 you might think that based on what it looks like after she feeds herself supper Smile

I'm working really hard on trying to be HAPPY when people ask if they can come over (like my friend who came over last week...I got over my fear of what she would think of my home at 3:30 PM and felt proud she thought of asking if her kid could come play) and also working on not being defensive and apologetic. When I first struggled with my home not being to the standards I would like after having a couple of kids, I used to apologize for the mess. I've stopped. There is no reason for me to think there is a problem with the state of my home when my kids are up and about (e.g. last week when I had company over, I was trying to clean up the crayons on the floor and my daughter kept on dumping them out again. I gave up for then and decided to try again when she wasn't around. My friend saw this and completely understood how it was not worth it to try to keep the floor clutter free at that exact time)...and then there could be physical factors as well. Have I just had a baby? Had a hard night sleeping because of kids waking up? Am I expecting? No one can know these things, but they all may be valid reasons why my home is not to the standards someone who walks in for a few minutes may have.

I laughed when a friend with a 4 month old told me she always keeps her home in a perfect state in case company pops in. Great for her, but honestly, I want to see if she would find the same thing possible with a 9 month old and 2 year old...I have no idea, and don't feel like asking her Smile

Last edited by Hashem_Yaazor on Wed, Jan 13 2010, 9:11 am; edited 1 time in total

the world's best mom

Wed, Jan 13 2010, 9:10 am

JudyJudith wrote:

Life's great you think I don't understand that everyone was created different...but I still what Tamiri wrote is true.

Even if s/o has a dissability & can't manage their home, if they love clean more than dirt & mess, they make it their priority. I'm sure this isn't the only thing that is hard for her, but usually we make things work if we want them to.

You can always hire outside help, get chesed, or have a trainer come down to your home to teach you housekeeping skills....but you need to really want it rather than the dirt, in order to make all that extra effort. Not e/o likes these options, or can afford cleaning help, but if they like cleanliness & think it's important they will look away at the other factors. Some pple would cut their expenses majorly in other ereas to make it possible to have cleaning help at least once a week.

I am not blaming them, but they obviously don't deem it that important. I otoh see that I'm a non functioning in a pig sty and therefore put this on the top10 of my list. If my house is in shape, then e/t else runs smoother.

For all the pple who said that they want to spend their sundays with the kids rather than the kids remembering them cleaning.....IMHO kids thrive yes thrive in a clean home & clean clothes...That doesn't mean that they need to remembering you tense about the cleanliness, & being obsessed with it, but some of the homes described in these threads are very very neglected. Btw Sunday is my day too to spend with the kids, & because it is important to me to start off the week in a clean home, we usually spend it outdoors. On cold or rainy weather we stay indoors, because I am involved with whatever they are doing the house stays in better shape. I usually clean for shabbos, then clean up again of motse shabbos, and then there is no need for cleaning on sunday mornings. It's such a pleasure waking up in a clean home.

I am a neat freak and a clean freak, but you would never know it by looking at my house. I really want a clean house and I enjoy cleaning. However, it simply is not an option now.

You say get a cleaning lady or Chessed help. Well, I have a cleaning lady for 2 hours a week. I cannot really afford more than that, and anyway, an hour after she leaves, you can't tell the house was ever cleaned. To cut my expenses so I could afford more would mean not feeding my family or paying my rent. And I have yet to find a Chessed program that provides free cleaning help. I did have girls come last year to help with my kids, but between me and the 2 girls, we still couldn't manage much cleaning.

Some people have very high needs children. I have 3 of them.

You say you clean up before Shabbos and after. Well, my cleaning lady cleans up before Shabbos, and dh and I do what we can after Shabbos, but it's not enough. I put my kids to sleep, and I have about 3 hours til my baby wakes up to nurse. He won't let me put him down after that, so I have to be ready to go to sleep with him or else I've lost my chance to put on pajamas. I had that problem last night. Every time I put him back in the crib, he woke up right away. I couldn't finish changing until I finally got him to go in for 10 minutes. Then he was up again when I came into bed.

Cleaning during the day doesn't always work. My time is quite occupied with therapy for the kids, doctor's visits, breaking up fights and the like. Today, for example, we just got home from the cardiologist. Now my baby has about an hour to sleep before his O.T. comes, followed by speech therapy. Then we leave to pick up the girls from school and take them to the gym for their therapy. In this hour, I am first relaxing a little bit after our stressful morning at the doctor (where the baby screamed through an echocardiogram and another test) and then I have to make supper. We are having company for supper, so I actually need to spend more than 2 minutes preparing. If I have a few minutes left, I'll pick up the few toys that are on the floor or fold some of the clean laundry. But those are not high on my priority list right now, even though I like a clean house. At the moment, it's almost clean enough that I won't be embarrassed if my company comes for supper before I clean at all. It would be better if I could sweep the kitchen floor first though.

Believe it or not, the state I am in now is excellent compared to last year. I had a horrible year with my kids last year. For 3 months straight, I had at least one appointment each day including most Sundays. I wasn't part of imamother yet then, so we can't blame that for my house being a pigsty. It was simple. Running to specialists and rushing home in time for therapy and picking up kids from school and stuff can take up an entire day for months straight. I couldn't face cleaning in the five minutes I had free on my good days. Back then, it was close to impossible to walk into my living room because it was so full of toys. Now that I'm managing somewhat better, you can walk in, just watch your step.
Cleaning is my 3rd prioriy. First comes taking care of my kids, which doesn't even include much extra time playing with them. Next comes taking care of myself. I am eating lunch now, which is a nice thing to do when I can find the time. Cleaning can not come in the place of these things. It will have to wait until I can get to it, even if it's not today.
So if you come to my house, don't be so quick to say that the toys on the floor are a sign that I don't care about cleanliness. I care more than you would ever guess. But I'm human. I can't do 10 things at once. We'll survive some toys on the floor.

pacifier

Wed, Jan 13 2010, 9:14 am

amother wrote:

I really believe OP refers to me. I can see each sentence referring to my house, as well as her way of speaking.
But I think she's not really sure about her facts.

Quote:

There were toys thrown all over the floor.

between my kids & the babysitting, yes toys are constantly all over.

Quote:

old food on the table and countertops.

I know, sometimes I'll leave out food that I know will go to the garbage anyways, and I want to throw it straight into the incinerator room rather than fill up my bag so quick. But I can't go right away, and then it sort of gets forgotten about.

Quote:

The stovetop was really gross with leftover food on it.

Maybe once or twice I've forgotten something on the stove, and that's when you came by and saw.

Quote:

and it's smelled so bad in there!

part of babysitting are all the dirty diapers from kids of all ages. no fun. But as the last kid leaves I take out that bag. The other option is that sometimes the mice/rats die in the walls. We just need to live with the smell until it disintegrates. Not much we can do.
Atleast we let in the exterminator. Not like some other neighbors.

Quote:

Not to mention, that I wouldn't dare eat at there house, or anything they sent over.

well said.
I would believe that someone who's so overwhelmed would appreciate some hands-on help from judging neighbor. I wouldn't mind a neighbor helping me re-organize the toys, picking up the cookie that baby managed to sneak in the living room and crumble all over the floor, while I wash those clean pots that toddler took out from the cabinet and put on the floor.....
Easy to judge, but not so easy to help, huh...
Now, if neighbor has her dishes from shabat to shabat, everythig is really filthy, then could be she's pregnant or sick.... When I got married, I used to scrub my kitchen, and the floors every day, till I got pregnant and vomiting all day.... talk about bad smell in the house....

Now whoever say that between 2 adults the house could be cleaner, sometimes the other adult feels strongly that it's not his job to clean, not even a plate.... takes years of "therapy" to change such a mindset!!

Is that why you always decline my offers? Atleast now I know. I won't bother inviting you anymore.

And somewhere you had written about dirty diapers all over the house? only on the couch which is where I change the kids who come for playgroup. Sometimes I'll let them pile up & then collect it all after.
And urine on kitchen floor? Not in my house, but I have had an ongoing puddle in my kitchen for the past 2 months. Our leak is finally fixed. So you won't see that water anymore. Hopefully.

Quote:

What would you do?

I would say go stay in your house. Why did you borrow something from my grossly dirty house? Are you saying that you've never seen my house in this state up until yesterday? Well then, maybe that means something happened that made me not be able to tend to my household chores one time?

Marigold

Wed, Jan 13 2010, 10:08 am

amother wrote:

Oh SO dirty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I had to go into my neighbor's house to give her something. and I nearly fainted.
The house was such a mess. but not just messy, it was filthy!!!!
There were toys thrown all over the floor. old food on the table and countertops. The stovetop was really gross with leftover food on it.
and it's smelled so bad in there!
It's always like that, everytime I go there.
I feel really bad for her, and her family.
But, how can people live like that?
It's so unhygienic.

Not to mention, that I wouldn't dare eat at there house, or anything they sent over.

What would you do?

What I find quite interesting is how everyone here is condemning the op about her being judgemental and then misconstruing her words. You are all comparing your "messy houses, toys on the floor, dishes in the sink" while the original poster wrote "filthy house, very bad smell and it's always like that."
I am called the vacuum cleaner lady by my neighbors and when you'd walk into my apt from 3-6pm you'd think it's all a farce. Fs, I do my mirrors at least 3 times a week and windows/shades very often, and my shpritzers are my very best friend. However, my 15mth old and 3 yr old are quite happy to share their dinner with the table, chairs, highchair and what really gets to me, the oven door. That's NORMAL. Nobody has ever said your house has to be in tiptop shape 24/7. When a house smells so bad then usually there is something a little more than just dirt and mismanagement.

And then there is this amother who has barely gotten any acknowledgements at all.

amother wrote:

I'm shocked that no one brought this up yet. But do you know if she manages in other areas or is that the same? DO her kids have meals? Clean clothing? I'd be so angry if I now know that the neighbors and relatives knew what I grew up with and didn't do anything to help us. We grew up in filth and dirt. We never had clean clothing or food. They didn't have imamother to post these questions to, but they could have done something. If you can help your neighbor, then do so.

Do you still say mind your own business and stay at your house in such a case? Yes you never know whats going behind closed doors and yet some people do need help. My nieces go to chessed calls all the time and sometimes have horror stories they repeat. (for constructive reasons I.e. money,more help, and strictly confidental.) My 9 yr old and 12 yr old niece have made pot of soup, kugel, bathed kids, folded a weeks worth of laundry and washed up all the floors in one friday. Another one sat for hours just folding a big box of SOCKS. These women are wonderful, nice people but simply not capable of doing their household duties. I'm not judging her or feel higher than thee and I am thankful for my ability to do so, but to compare a messy house that is dirty from 2-8 to a filthy house that has a bad smell is ridiculous.
And to the poster who wrote about add condition, if you live where I do, I'd gladly give you a hand despite the fact that I don't have children of tutoring age yet. I could use with some adult, intelligent company once in a while......

Fox

Wed, Jan 13 2010, 10:14 am

I've been following this thread for a while, and while I don't disagree in theory that clean is better than dirty, I cannot help but remember a situation in my extended family a few years ago.

I had a second cousin -- I'd only met her once or twice in my life -- whose horrible housekeeping and laissez-faire parenting was a constant source of family loshen hora. To my everlasting regret, I listened to all this with half an ear without protesting or commenting. After all, I didn't know this person, and no doubt her house was the pig sty her closer relatives described.

Well, fast forward: my cousin was niftar from an undiagnosed illness. The doctor who treated her when she was brought to the hospital was astonished that she'd been able to get out of bed and go to her job, let alone do anything whatsoever in the way of housework. He was pretty harsh on her family for not having taken any action before it was too late. I'd like to say that the yentas in the family were silenced, but I'm afraid they weren't -- they just found excuses for themselves for not seeing that this woman was obviously suffering.

Fast-forward another decade: Although I am definitely housework impaired, things had been going even worse than usual. I could hardly make it through dinner each evening, and making Shabbos took all my energy for the week. I blamed it on an excess of responsibility (full-time work; no paid help; husband who doesn't help) as well as being middle-aged and out of shape. To make a long story short, it was discovered somewhat accidentally that I was severely anemic. When I solved that problem, I suddenly found that I could wash an extra load of dishes, take out the garbage, or put away that load of laundry sitting in the basket. I'm still not a model of exemplary housekeeping, but the change is incredible.

I know others have mentioned illness and pregnancy as potential reasons for an ill-kempt house, but I just want to underscore that we really have no idea what limitations a person is up against -- and sometimes we don't even realize ourselves why we're having so much trouble. So if you don't feel comfortable eating at a neighbor's home, don't eat there; if your delicate nose is offended, stay away. But keep in mind that you may be in a similar position someday -- for reasons completely beyond your control! How would you like to be regarded in such circumstances?

Hashem_Yaazor

Wed, Jan 13 2010, 10:21 am

Fox wrote:

To make a long story short, it was discovered somewhat accidentally that I was severely anemic. When I solved that problem, I suddenly found that I could wash an extra load of dishes, take out the garbage, or put away that load of laundry sitting in the basket. I'm still not a model of exemplary housekeeping, but the change is incredible.

That's a very good point...I definitely found that when I took care of my anemia, I suddenly had more energy to do more Smile

And to the posters above regarding the smell, my home usually doesn't smell, but sometimes I'll come home from work and realize the garbage needs to be taken out, but I can't do anything about it because I have 3 little kids around...and it will wait till my husband comes home. In the morning time, the garbage didn't smell.
So I wouldn't judge a home from the smell either...

gryp

Wed, Jan 13 2010, 10:26 am

BinahYeteirah wrote:

Personally, I think keeping a larger house clean is actually easier.

Most of my married life we've lived in small apartments. For a couple years, we lived in a house. It was probably 2-3 times the size of the apartments I've lived in. It was also the easiest place to clean for Pesach. There was plenty of storage, so I could easily move things around to check and organize the cabinets and closets without having to take out every last thing and eal with it all in one go. I had enough kitchen space that it wasn't a problem to move the chametz things to certain cabinets and close them up. I didn't have to box up my chametz things to make room for the Pesach ones. I could clean a bedroom months in advance, and keep it closed up except for essential uses like sleeping, and my kids still had enough room to play in the rest of the house. I could clean the dining room, keep it Pesachdig, while eating in the eat-in kitchen. In a tiny apartment, every space is in constant use. There's only so much cleaning in advance when your bedroom door is directly across from the kitchen and chametz is so easily tracked in. And during the year, all the spaces are just getting used constantly. When breakfast is cleaned up, the table turns into an art station. Then it's lunch, then playdough, then dinner, then laundry folding area, then bills, then, then, then... If you have several bathrooms, it is often possible to keep one nicer for guests. If you have a family room and a living room, one can be kept nice while the other can have toys all over. At least you can feel a sense of peace looking at some part of the house.

I go back and forth on this a lot. I figured that keeping 1 bathroom clean is easier than 2 or 3, 1 small kitchen is easier than a large one, etc.
I hear your point about storage and I agree with that part, which is why I dread making Pesach. Just cleaning one small corner is a huge task because of what I have stashed away in every possible storage space.

chocolate moose

Wed, Jan 13 2010, 10:37 am

But if all of you share that one bathroom, it gets a lot of traffic and use. If all of you share 3 bathrooms, the use gets spread out. It won't (shoudn't) be as dirty.

freidasima

Wed, Jan 13 2010, 10:44 am

Fox - agree in full which is why before you take care of your house take care of yourself. I keep writing to posters here - go to the doctor, check out your health. Try to eat right and exercise even a bit. Don't push off checkups.

And GR, I have bad asthma, which is why I have to be very careful with dust in trisim, picture frames, surfaces, and don't have carpets anywhere I go regularly.

gryp

Wed, Jan 13 2010, 10:50 am

chocolate moose wrote:

But if all of you share that one bathroom, it gets a lot of traffic and use. If all of you share 3 bathrooms, the use gets spread out. It won't (shoudn't) be as dirty.

The dirt just gets spread out, that's all. And the clutter in the rest of the house.

gryp

Wed, Jan 13 2010, 10:52 am

Quote:

And GR, I have bad asthma, which is why I have to be very careful with dust in trisim, picture frames, surfaces, and don't have carpets anywhere I go regularly.

I understand that.
All of my beautiful picture frames and different china pieces are wrapped carefully for the moment until my kids get a bit older. I'd be pretty upset if something broke. I don't really have that much to dust besides surfaces. (Forget the lights and windowshades, they're not even on my radar.)

imaima

Wed, Jan 13 2010, 10:52 am

amother wrote:

New Amother here.

Amother above, I am one of those "sick" people who have a terribly messy house. If you want to know why, read on.

Everyone is born with talents in some areas and deficiencies in others. I am a person who writes well, could always ace tests without studying for them, and am an excellent public speaker.

However, I also have a very severe case of ADD. On a diagnostic test used to determine attention span, I scored below the first percentile, totally off the charts. I also have a non-obvious physical disability that makes fine motor skills, such as those needed in washing dishes and folding laundry, quite difficult. That combined with a severe lack of physical stamina have made it impossible (yes, impossible) for me to keep my house clean.

I have had this issue since I was little. As a kid I would routinely do my homework and then fail the assignment because I lost it. Since getting married I have tried every strategy in the book to keep my house organized. I am a creative person and have come up with many great organizational systems, charts, etc., but do to my ADD and physical issues I can't follow through with them. Even without my ADD, my physical issues alone make housework take twice as long as a normal person. If I had excellent organizational skills I could work around it, but unfortunately my ADD gets in the way of that.

I also work full time and attend school part-time. ADD affects different people in different ways. Despite my ADD I do quite well at work and school. I can plan work tasks in advance at do well at school, as long as I don't have to multi-task. However, housework involves a tremendous amount of multitasking which makes me lose my ability to function. For example, if I notice that the dishes need to be washed while I am cleaning the living room, I will totally forget that I am cleaning the living room and may not remember to do the dishes either.

For years I struggled trying to maintain my household. This has (and still does) caused me to have numerous fights with my husband. Eventually a few months ago I told my husband that this can't go on any longer and that he has to leave kollel and take care of the house. He did just that, but the house is still a mess since he isn't good at it either. He is better than I am at cleaning, but certainly not good at it. However, at least now someone is making dinner, since I was never organized enough to pull that one off every night.

I hope you understand that I don't like it this way. I wish there was some way that I could give up my intelligence and trade it for homemaking skills, since that is considered much more important by society. However, I don't have that choice. I try not to have complaints against the Aibishter, but I have trouble understanding why Hashem created a system where the main role of a Jewish woman is to run her home when some women are simply not capable of doing so. People like you don't view those lacking in intelligence or any other area as being messed up, lazy, or inconsiderate, but feel free to judge me like that. It would be absurd to call someone in a wheelchair lazy for not walking and it is similarly absurd to call me lazy for not keeping my house clean.

If you have issues with that, talk to the One who created me. Or better yet, come over with a broom and I will be happy to tutor your child in exchange.

sounds like me. didn't know it is a diagnosis..

sarahd

Wed, Jan 13 2010, 11:43 am

GR wrote:

chocolate moose wrote:

But if all of you share that one bathroom, it gets a lot of traffic and use. If all of you share 3 bathrooms, the use gets spread out. It won't (shoudn't) be as dirty.

The dirt just gets spread out, that's all. And the clutter in the rest of the house.

I don't find that to be the case. I have three bathrooms (or at rate, three toilets, which is the main thing.) I can make sure that my son, who is none too careful about toilet hygiene, uses only one bathroom. Ergo, only one bathroom is so disgusting that it needs to be cleaned daily. Also ergo, I have one bathroom that I can let guests into without dying of embarrassment (unless said son sneaked in there without my knowledge.) Also, when I have house guests, I can make sure my son uses our (dh & mine) toilet for his needs, so the guests have a clean, nice-smelling bathroom.

While my son's bathroom needs to be cleaned almost daily, my own bathroom doesn't need to be cleaned more than once a week.

gryp

Wed, Jan 13 2010, 11:59 am

Maybe all 3 bathrooms wouldn't need to be cleaned daily, but they'd still need to be kept clean. I can't say I don't wish for another bathroom in this place because of what goes on here when my kids all need the bathroom at once. But I'd definitely need to be doing double work.

Butterscoth

Wed, Jan 13 2010, 12:35 pm

I would mind my own business and realize she must have a lot of things going on in her life. Everyone prioritizes differently because different things are more important to different people.

amother

Wed, Jan 13 2010, 2:34 pm

on the note of the topic of this heated conversation, I just saw an ad here on imamother for 'home organizing solutions'...maybe it can help lotsa wonderful women here!

http://www.holdnstorage.com/index.htm

(no commision or connection to the owner/s of this site; just noticed it n thought it was pretty ironic to have such an ad 'punkt' now with this discussion!)

Ronit

Wed, Jan 13 2010, 3:10 pm

I agree with Paddington & Fox.

There are circumstances that can bring a house to such levels of neglects, BUT THIS IS NEGLECT.

I was also thinking, why is everybody giving op such slack for being judgemental ....she clearly stated that this is a neighbor & this goes on by her ALL the time. This is NOT a regular scene in most households even at the busiest hour. If you clean a house daily, it doesn't pile up to this extent.

I think op you should really look into how her kids are taken care of, & if there is any way for you to help her. I was almost crying for that amother who wrote that she grew up in such a home & she was neglected.

Marigold

Wed, Jan 13 2010, 5:17 pm

JudyJudith wrote:

Finally. You would think from the harsh criticism the op got that she has attacked everyone on this board.

Page 6 of 8

Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Next