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Seraph
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 Thu, Jan 14 2010, 1:54 am
| amother wrote: | | oh come on people!!!! if you for some reason can not abstain because you have to go to the mikva that night then its your responsibility to come prepared!!!!!!!!!! you come with your sheets , towels or wtvr else you may need. it is NOT your hosts problem to think heyyy maybe theyll have relations I better move out the sefarim. Seriously, either abstain or if u MUST have relations in someone elses house (which I would never do since I dont feel comfortable) bring your own sheet!!!!!!!!!!! | How many extra sheets should you bring? If you've never been to someone's house before, or never slept at their house, you might not know that there are sfarim in the guest room. And there might be even three or four sfarim shelves... so if you bring one sheet it might not be enough.
One time I went to a relative's house who I'd been to lots of times. And I knew there were no sfarim in the bedroom, so I didn't think to bring anything. Well, whaddya know, they rearranged and there were now sfarim in the guest room. We abstained, but also because there was no lock on the door, but that is another story.
I think a host should think of any possible occurrence when a guest comes. I have extra pads in a place where guests can find them if they look, extra toilet paper for guests, show them where cups and drinks are in case they're thirsty, I try to put out cookies and fruit in their room in case they're hungry, give them an extra blanket in case they're cold, an extra pillow in case one isn't enough... and yea, if I'd have sfarim in my guest room, I'd give them a sheet to cover the bookcase.
When you have guests, you're supposed to make them as welcome in your home as you'd want to be in someone else's home. Give them better than you have. So if you don't keep sfarim in your room because you don't have relations in front of sfarim- and you can't give them BETTER than that as halacha demands, then at least give them the option to cover up the sfarim.
Last edited by Seraph on Thu, Jan 14 2010, 1:59 am; edited 1 time in total
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Seraph
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Thu, Jan 14 2010, 1:58 am
| shabbatiscoming wrote: | | Seraph wrote: | | shabbatiscoming wrote: | | Seraph wrote: | | amother wrote: | | I learned in Kallah classes that if you are having relations in someone else's home you are required to bring your own sheets and towels, etc. I can't believe that this is an actual discussion. When I invite someone to my house I leave them towels as it is a natural thing to need a towel, washing your hands, your face, etc.... I definitely would not leave them extra sheets to prepare for their possible hanky pankying in my home. Quite frankly, it is their business to prepare for themselves and it's the last thing on my mind when I invite someone over. I'm so surprised that so many people obviously have this on their mind when inviting guests over. To me, leaving extra sheets lying around is the same like leaving a bottle of lubricant in the night-table, 'just in case'. You pack your own lingerie, you can pack some extra stuff as well if you really need to. And as far as going to the mikveh from someone else's home, the only time I can see myself doing that is if I had a sibling's simchah and I couldn't possibly get out of the shabbos etc.... | In my opinion, its not a normal thing to have sfarim in a guest room. So I don't bring along extra sheets just in case there's a weird setup. I do bring my own towels, but why would someone assume that there's a sfarim shelf in the guest room? | just wondering why not? where would you have people put all of their books. growing up, I know that in my bedroom I had chumashim and things like that, so why would a guest room be any different? my parents have sfarim in one of their guest rooms. why is it so abnormal? | Most people I know keep sfarim in the living room. we have secular books in the guest room. | like I said, in my apartment now we have both sfarim and secualr books in the living room, but there is only so much room there and the other books that dont fit are in the guest room.
I guess for someone who does not want secualr books in their living room this makes sense but we want some of our secualr books in the living room, we have no problem with that, so the sfarim and whatever other books, that we do not use regularly, go into the guest room. | So if you have a reason that you have sfarim in a guest room, whats the harm or difficulty in giving an extra sheet so they can cover the bookcases? Or at least show them where the linen closet if they need to help themselves?
Unless the reason people are adamant not to do this is because they don't want any OTHER couple having sx under their roof, so they're going to make things as impossible as they can so theres no chance of them having sx?
When we have guests, I warn them beforehand that the beds are on separate levels. (Actually, its a mattress and a bed.) And yes, the reason I warn them about this is because I do think about them maybe having relations or wanting to cuddle all night, and since our setup in the guest room is different than most's, I want to warn them so they can decline the invitation or prepare themselves for that.
I do think hosts should assume that a married couple might want to be intimate in their house and prepare for that eventuality.
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amother
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Thu, Jan 14 2010, 2:06 am
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Don't you give them each a blanket anyway? So when they're being intimate, one is extra...
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shabbatiscoming
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Thu, Jan 14 2010, 2:09 am
| Seraph wrote: | | shabbatiscoming wrote: | | Seraph wrote: | | shabbatiscoming wrote: | | Seraph wrote: | | amother wrote: | | I learned in Kallah classes that if you are having relations in someone else's home you are required to bring your own sheets and towels, etc. I can't believe that this is an actual discussion. When I invite someone to my house I leave them towels as it is a natural thing to need a towel, washing your hands, your face, etc.... I definitely would not leave them extra sheets to prepare for their possible hanky pankying in my home. Quite frankly, it is their business to prepare for themselves and it's the last thing on my mind when I invite someone over. I'm so surprised that so many people obviously have this on their mind when inviting guests over. To me, leaving extra sheets lying around is the same like leaving a bottle of lubricant in the night-table, 'just in case'. You pack your own lingerie, you can pack some extra stuff as well if you really need to. And as far as going to the mikveh from someone else's home, the only time I can see myself doing that is if I had a sibling's simchah and I couldn't possibly get out of the shabbos etc.... | In my opinion, its not a normal thing to have sfarim in a guest room. So I don't bring along extra sheets just in case there's a weird setup. I do bring my own towels, but why would someone assume that there's a sfarim shelf in the guest room? | just wondering why not? where would you have people put all of their books. growing up, I know that in my bedroom I had chumashim and things like that, so why would a guest room be any different? my parents have sfarim in one of their guest rooms. why is it so abnormal? | Most people I know keep sfarim in the living room. we have secular books in the guest room. | like I said, in my apartment now we have both sfarim and secualr books in the living room, but there is only so much room there and the other books that dont fit are in the guest room.
I guess for someone who does not want secualr books in their living room this makes sense but we want some of our secualr books in the living room, we have no problem with that, so the sfarim and whatever other books, that we do not use regularly, go into the guest room. | So if you have a reason that you have sfarim in a guest room, whats the harm or difficulty in giving an extra sheet so they can cover the bookcases? Or at least show them where the linen closet if they need to help themselves?
Unless the reason people are adamant not to do this is because they don't want any OTHER couple having sx under their roof, so they're going to make things as impossible as they can so theres no chance of them having sx?
When we have guests, I warn them beforehand that the beds are on separate levels. (Actually, its a mattress and a bed.) And yes, the reason I warn them about this is because I do think about them maybe having relations or wanting to cuddle all night, and since our setup in the guest room is different than most's, I want to warn them so they can decline the invitation or prepare themselves for that.
I do think hosts should assume that a married couple might want to be intimate in their house and prepare for that eventuality. | as I mentioned in the begining of this thread I always give my guests exra covers so that if they are cold they have more, so if they really want they actually can use the covers to cover any sfarim, but my point is, I do NOT think that it is the host's obligation to make it the most comfy for a couple to have s e x in their home, no I really do not. im sorry, I will givethem blankets and towels to use in the bathroom, I will give them drinks and show them where the cups and breakfast cereals are, but I am not obligated to make a couple feel at home to have s e x. I really do not agree with this. I know that when we go places and we have an inkling that we might be intimate, we bring a towel along. in the same vane if the sfarim is an issue for some, they have to think about that before they go.
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amother
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Thu, Jan 14 2010, 2:10 am
most of the time one sheet is not enough -- dh holds 2 coverings and one sheet doesn't cover all the sforim
I think if you invite a couple you should have it ready for them. Just like you give them food and want them to be comfortable -this should be included. Especially if they are staying for more then a few days.
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shalhevet
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Thu, Jan 14 2010, 2:33 am
| Rodent wrote: | It is forbidden to have s*x in front of a sefer tora (and only a kasher one) without a mechitza. This does NOT extend to all sefarim. In fact we have ALL of our books in our bedroom (they used to be in the loungeroom but #1 was particularly fond of paper as a baby and destroyed so many of our books). We also have a pasul sefer tora that my husband hasn't finished fixing on top of the bookshelf in there. We never cover our bookshelf.
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Since everyone else on this thread learned that you do need to cover seforim, or any davar bikdusha - I learned with 2 covers - maybe you are the one who is wrong. Where is your source? I don't have time to look it up now, but I think you should ask your rav (and I know your husband is a rav, but everyone can make mistakes). I think you are making a very serious mistake - no one here is imagining what they learned. If there is a thread here and ten or twenty women (from all streams of Orthodoxy) all say something contrary to what I learned I think that warrants at least checking it out, instead of insisting you are right.
(There was once a thread here about candle lighting and in its zechus I asked my dh and he checked up, and I discovered I should be looking at the candles immediately after saying the brocho instead of keeping my eyes covered while I daven - even though I'd been doing it for about 15+ years of marriage.)
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shalhevet
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Thu, Jan 14 2010, 2:40 am
| shabbatiscoming wrote: | | Seraph wrote: | | shabbatiscoming wrote: | | Seraph wrote: | | shabbatiscoming wrote: | | Seraph wrote: | | amother wrote: | | I learned in Kallah classes that if you are having relations in someone else's home you are required to bring your own sheets and towels, etc. I can't believe that this is an actual discussion. When I invite someone to my house I leave them towels as it is a natural thing to need a towel, washing your hands, your face, etc.... I definitely would not leave them extra sheets to prepare for their possible hanky pankying in my home. Quite frankly, it is their business to prepare for themselves and it's the last thing on my mind when I invite someone over. I'm so surprised that so many people obviously have this on their mind when inviting guests over. To me, leaving extra sheets lying around is the same like leaving a bottle of lubricant in the night-table, 'just in case'. You pack your own lingerie, you can pack some extra stuff as well if you really need to. And as far as going to the mikveh from someone else's home, the only time I can see myself doing that is if I had a sibling's simchah and I couldn't possibly get out of the shabbos etc.... | In my opinion, its not a normal thing to have sfarim in a guest room. So I don't bring along extra sheets just in case there's a weird setup. I do bring my own towels, but why would someone assume that there's a sfarim shelf in the guest room? | just wondering why not? where would you have people put all of their books. growing up, I know that in my bedroom I had chumashim and things like that, so why would a guest room be any different? my parents have sfarim in one of their guest rooms. why is it so abnormal? | Most people I know keep sfarim in the living room. we have secular books in the guest room. | like I said, in my apartment now we have both sfarim and secualr books in the living room, but there is only so much room there and the other books that dont fit are in the guest room.
I guess for someone who does not want secualr books in their living room this makes sense but we want some of our secualr books in the living room, we have no problem with that, so the sfarim and whatever other books, that we do not use regularly, go into the guest room. | So if you have a reason that you have sfarim in a guest room, whats the harm or difficulty in giving an extra sheet so they can cover the bookcases? Or at least show them where the linen closet if they need to help themselves?
Unless the reason people are adamant not to do this is because they don't want any OTHER couple having sx under their roof, so they're going to make things as impossible as they can so theres no chance of them having sx?
When we have guests, I warn them beforehand that the beds are on separate levels. (Actually, its a mattress and a bed.) And yes, the reason I warn them about this is because I do think about them maybe having relations or wanting to cuddle all night, and since our setup in the guest room is different than most's, I want to warn them so they can decline the invitation or prepare themselves for that.
I do think hosts should assume that a married couple might want to be intimate in their house and prepare for that eventuality. | as I mentioned in the begining of this thread I always give my guests exra covers so that if they are cold they have more, so if they really want they actually can use the covers to cover any sfarim, but my point is, I do NOT think that it is the host's obligation to make it the most comfy for a couple to have s e x in their home, no I really do not. im sorry, I will givethem blankets and towels to use in the bathroom, I will give them drinks and show them where the cups and breakfast cereals are, but I am not obligated to make a couple feel at home to have s e x. I really do not agree with this. I know that when we go places and we have an inkling that we might be intimate, we bring a towel along. in the same vane if the sfarim is an issue for some, they have to think about that before they go. |
I totally agree with Shabbat.
I actually think it is tasteless at best, and embarrassing at worst to openly provide my guests with extra covers etc for seforim. I honestly don't think about any other couple's s-x life and I actually find it extremely weird that someone would invite a couple and think 'maybe they want to have s-x tonight, I better give them the opportunity'. I would be mortified if someone left me sheets 'to cover the seforim with'. You are actually not allowed, al pi halacha, to have relations in someone else's home if they will be able to know at all. No one should be thinking about another couple in that way. If you meet a friend at the mikva, do you think later that evening 'oh, plonis is also with her husband tonight'? If your friend has a baby do you think about how that baby was created? Sorry, if you do, you need to work on your tznius.
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Seraph
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Thu, Jan 14 2010, 2:40 am
| shalhevet wrote: | | Rodent wrote: | It is forbidden to have s*x in front of a sefer tora (and only a kasher one) without a mechitza. This does NOT extend to all sefarim. In fact we have ALL of our books in our bedroom (they used to be in the loungeroom but #1 was particularly fond of paper as a baby and destroyed so many of our books). We also have a pasul sefer tora that my husband hasn't finished fixing on top of the bookshelf in there. We never cover our bookshelf.
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Since everyone else on this thread learned that you do need to cover seforim, or any davar bikdusha - I learned with 2 covers - maybe you are the one who is wrong. Where is your source? I don't have time to look it up now, but I think you should ask your rav (and I know your husband is a rav, but everyone can make mistakes). I think you are making a very serious mistake - no one here is imagining what they learned. If there is a thread here and ten or twenty women (from all streams of Orthodoxy) all say something contrary to what I learned I think that warrants at least checking it out, instead of insisting you are right.
(There was once a thread here about candle lighting and in its zechus I asked my dh and he checked up, and I discovered I should be looking at the candles immediately after saying the brocho instead of keeping my eyes covered while I daven - even though I'd been doing it for about 15+ years of marriage.) | Maybe Rambamists hold differently?
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Seraph
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Thu, Jan 14 2010, 2:47 am
Shalhevet and Shabbat, forget relations. You're not supposed to get undressed in front of sfarim. If you leave uncovered sfarim you're also making it uncomfortable for them to sleep comfortably, get changed comfortably OR have relations.
I don't think there is anything untznius about leaving extra sheets. Its one thing for guests to do something to let me KNOW they're having relations. Its quite another for me to prepare the room so that if they DO want to have relations, they can. I still don't know either way about it if they do or don't, and its not my business... the same way its not my business if someone has a period and takes a pad that I have on the bathroom shelves.
Just because its not tznius for me to know that they did something doesnt mean I have to make it uncomfortable if they want to. I don't assume anything when my guests come. But I prepare the room the way I'd want the room prepared if I were the guest.
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Seraph
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Thu, Jan 14 2010, 2:51 am
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Shalhevet, you'd be embarrassed if you found an extra sheet or two in the guest room as a guest? I never said to say anything to the guest like "If you want to have relations, here's a sheet here." There are plenty of reasons why someone might want an extra sheet. Like if they are hot at night and just sleep with a top sheet instead of a blanket.
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shabbatiscoming
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Thu, Jan 14 2010, 5:31 am
[quote="Seraph"] | shabbatiscoming wrote: | | Quote: | | just a question, if it is pitch black and you did not notice if there were sfarim or not jewish books there before, is it a problem still? our guest room can be pitch black with the door closed and so I wonder about this? | I don't know. I don't know if this is an aveira or just hanhoga... | seraph I asked about even if the room is pitch black and the answer was that they still have to be covered, so I guess it is halacha all around.
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Seraph
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Thu, Jan 14 2010, 6:05 am
[quote="shabbatiscoming"] | Seraph wrote: | | shabbatiscoming wrote: | | Quote: | | just a question, if it is pitch black and you did not notice if there were sfarim or not jewish books there before, is it a problem still? our guest room can be pitch black with the door closed and so I wonder about this? | I don't know. I don't know if this is an aveira or just hanhoga... | seraph I asked about even if the room is pitch black and the answer was that they still have to be covered, so I guess it is halacha all around. | Different shitos pasken halacha very differently. Perhaps rambamists pasken halacha differently on this as well.
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Israeli Mother
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Thu, Jan 14 2010, 6:38 am
| Seraph wrote: | | In my opinion, its not a normal thing to have sfarim in a guest room. So I don't bring along extra sheets just in case there's a weird setup. I do bring my own towels, but why would someone assume that there's a sfarim shelf in the guest room? |
You must live in Efrat or Neve Daniel where there are huge houses 
I must tell you that we don't have a separate "guest room". When we have guests, whether it is married children or non-family members, we have always had to displace children from their rooms. We live in a teeny apartment and we are very fortunate that Hashem gives us the possibility of having guests and feeding them, must less having an entire extra unused room for them. Kids can have sfarim [chumash, siddur, navi, etc.] in their rooms because it's normal for them to do so and I don't think that that is so weird.
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shabbatiscoming
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Thu, Jan 14 2010, 6:42 am
| Israeli Mother wrote: | | Seraph wrote: | | In my opinion, its not a normal thing to have sfarim in a guest room. So I don't bring along extra sheets just in case there's a weird setup. I do bring my own towels, but why would someone assume that there's a sfarim shelf in the guest room? |
You must live in Efrat or Neve Daniel where there are huge houses
I must tell you that we don't have a separate "guest room". When we have guests, whether it is married children or non-family members, we have always had to displace children from their rooms. We live in a teeny apartment and we are very fortunate that Hashem gives us the possibility of having guests and feeding them, must less having an entire extra unused room for them. Kids can have sfarim [chumash, siddur, navi, etc.] in their rooms because it's normal for them to do so and I don't think that that is so weird. | seraph does not live in efrat or neve daniel but I do  (ND that is) and I must say that yes there are a lot of big houses but I do not live in one of them and we use our mamad as our guest room. and there are sfarim there.
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amother
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Thu, Jan 14 2010, 6:48 am
| shabbatiscoming wrote: | | I have had quite a few guests in my home, but I will tell you, it has never crossed my mind about their s e x life at all and it is not my job to do so. |
I don't think that focusing on my guest's s~x life is really so tznius -- besides, then I take time away from focusing on my own
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Hashemlovesme
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Thu, Jan 14 2010, 7:49 am
I had to go once while we were @ my in laws for Pesach. B"H it was on the 1 day of chol hamoed btwn Shabbos & Yom Tov or it would've been very hard on me (not to wear makeup &slipping out for a bit is pretty obvious).
Also, I stayed @ a house for Shabbos where we were in the boys room (who were in Yeshiva) & they pua a sheet/curtain over the sefarim.
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Seraph
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Thu, Jan 14 2010, 7:53 am
| Israeli Mother wrote: | | Seraph wrote: | | In my opinion, its not a normal thing to have sfarim in a guest room. So I don't bring along extra sheets just in case there's a weird setup. I do bring my own towels, but why would someone assume that there's a sfarim shelf in the guest room? |
You must live in Efrat or Neve Daniel where there are huge houses
I must tell you that we don't have a separate "guest room". When we have guests, whether it is married children or non-family members, we have always had to displace children from their rooms. We live in a teeny apartment and we are very fortunate that Hashem gives us the possibility of having guests and feeding them, must less having an entire extra unused room for them. Kids can have sfarim [chumash, siddur, navi, etc.] in their rooms because it's normal for them to do so and I don't think that that is so weird. | Nope. I live somewhere else and have a two bedroom apartment, and my guest room is my son's room. But I still don't keep sfarim there, and if I would, I would take them out when we have guests.
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amother
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Thu, Jan 14 2010, 8:01 am
A different question....
What do you say on having relations with guests in your house? ex- I live in a small appt in E"Y & my parents were staying by me on my lail mik.
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shabbatiscoming
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Thu, Jan 14 2010, 8:12 am
| amother wrote: | A different question....
What do you say on having relations with guests in your house? ex- I live in a small appt in E"Y & my parents were staying by me on my lail mik. | whats the problem with that? close your door and be a little bit quieter than you might be otherwise.
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chocolate moose
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Thu, Jan 14 2010, 10:14 am
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I think ppl know the din, they just don't have been homes - and a lot of seforim !!!
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