S'farim in guest bedroom

amother

Thu, Jan 14 2010, 10:47 am

I simply cannot believe that you women 'prepare' for your guests potential intimacy. Besides for being extremely improper, you are also not allowed to think about or even consider another couple's possible relations. Preparing sheets to cover the seforim, etc, is simply wrong on every single level possible. I don't care what you hold. Also, not having s-x in front of seforim is your guests responsibility, not yours. I don't know what world you live in but in today's day and age it is extremely common to assume that there may be seforim in the guest room that you'll sleep in. At least 2/3 of people's guest rooms double as libraries, seforim rooms, offices, dens, etc... All places that seforim would naturally be in. If I am going to someone else's house for shabbos and am thinking about being with my husband that night, it is something that I prepare for. If I thought that my hosts even had a thought about it I would never go to them again. I am so surprised at some of your responses. You shroud your comments in halacha, etc, when what it really is is an extreme level of indecency.

shabri

Thu, Jan 14 2010, 11:03 am

amother wrote:

Please. Its not indecency. Seraph (I think it was her) said it best she justs "forgets" an extra sheet in there when she's making up the room. Or make sure the guests have extra blankets in case they get cold. Nobody is checking up as to whether they were used and nobody is thinking abt what the couple is or is not doing. It just as easily can be that they aren't used than that they are. But, if you do have a guest room that has sefarim I think it is nice to make sure there is a way for the guests to be comfortable. Thats it. Move on.

The way you sound, nobody should ever invite others to a wedding since we all know what the couple will be doing that night. Were you embarrassed to have guests at your wedding. I assume not. We just don't think abt what happens next. Same here. We prepare but don't think abt it

WriterMom

Thu, Jan 14 2010, 11:04 am

amother wrote:

Why is this anonymous?

I like to make sure that my guests have as much privacy as my house can provide them. I also like to make sure that they have everything they need. Am I sitting around wondering "how can I make it easier for them to have s-x under my roof"? Of course not. Is providing for privacy and modesty, however they choose to use it, commendable? I for one think so.

Hashem_Yaazor

Thu, Jan 14 2010, 11:44 am

shalhevet wrote:

I totally agree with Shabbat.

I actually think it is tasteless at best, and embarrassing at worst to openly provide my guests with extra covers etc for seforim. I honestly don't think about any other couple's s-x life and I actually find it extremely weird that someone would invite a couple and think 'maybe they want to have s-x tonight, I better give them the opportunity'. I would be mortified if someone left me sheets 'to cover the seforim with'. You are actually not allowed, al pi halacha, to have relations in someone else's home if they will be able to know at all. No one should be thinking about another couple in that way. If you meet a friend at the mikva, do you think later that evening 'oh, plonis is also with her husband tonight'? If your friend has a baby do you think about how that baby was created? Sorry, if you do, you need to work on your tznius.

I once was a guest somewhere that put out a double bed, a single bed with white sheets in case that was necessary, and had the bookcases all covered up. Very accommodating, don't you think?
Thinking WAY too much into what we may need in those aspects (and many other aspects were completely neglected)...

busydev

Thu, Jan 14 2010, 11:46 am

I have a one bedroom and have not yet had the zchus of having guests sleep over.

But in my parents home we ALWAYS left a pile of extra blankets and quilts and pillows in the room so that if the guests wanted more blankets or found a different pillow more comfortable they were able to take it without having to feel embarrased. And if needed the extra blankets could serve to cover the bookcase we had in that room. But that was not the intention when leaving the blankets there.

Also I was told that you can def have relations in someone else's house, just make sure they cannot hear you and that you dont leave a mess- bring your own towel or sheet.

And there are PLENTY of reasons why a person is being a guest either on mikva night or on another night when they want to be intimate or need to be (ttc etc), simchas, tzaros, yom tov, etc....

Ruchel

Thu, Jan 14 2010, 12:09 pm

prettyone wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

Many put one couple in one bed and if she's nidda the husband sleeps on the couch/floor/three chairs/they make a separation, depending on what they learned. Not everyone has two individual beds to put in a guest room, or beds at all (many use convertible sofas).

No I don't assume couples would be intimate under my roof. If they can manage, good for them. But I don't assume this.

thats not very nice as a host. are you for real that you would want your guest to sleep on three chairs or the floor?

(a couch - fine but the floor?)

dont have a married couple over if you cant accomodate. or at least warn them in advance so they know they are expected to sleep on a floor.

What do you mean they would sleep on the floor or on chairs at my home? have you been there? It's a real meshugas here that if you say something it means you must be doing it. No way you could be talking of someone else, or in theory. Sick.

hadasa

Thu, Jan 14 2010, 9:34 pm

shmoozer wrote:

If someone prepared sheets for me I would ABSOLUTELY NOT USE IT! It would be like - thanks for thinking about my intimicy and yes, WE DONE IT!
This thread would fit perfectly with my mother in law. she had a headache before we came for shabbos whether we are clean or not so that she should know to put the beds together or not. It's like - hello! myob. just put the beds apart and let me do as I please.

You know, up until now, if a hostess would leave some extra sheets in the room or show me where the linen is kept, I would just think she forgot them or was being hospitable or thought we might be cold. I wouldn't think Does she think we're going to be having relations tonight? Now, thanks to this thread, I probably will think so.

So the moral is... Leave out extra sheets for your guest...unless she's on imamother...

Rodent

Fri, Jan 15 2010, 12:28 am

GetReal wrote:

Rodent wrote:

What is your source for saying that you cannot? Don't tell me a rabbi, I want a SOURCE.

I don't have time now to check up all these sources, but the sefer here lists:
Mishneh Berurah 40:4-7 and 240:30-31
Mechaber and Rema 40:2
Shulchan Aruch HaRav 315:4

The gemara specifies that 2 coverings must be in place for sifrei tora and tefillin (the usual covering eg. tefillin boxes and bag can only count as one, no matter how many layers so at least one additional cover is needed).

Rambam specifies the same but ONLY for sifrei tora and not for tefillin. What basis he has for leaving out tefillin is unknown and somewhat puzzling.

The Shulhan Aruch says the same as the gemara, 2 layers for sifrei tora AND tefillin.

Rema says the same as the Shulhan Aruch (but says that the 'usual covering' can be either covering wheras the Shulhan Aruch implies it should be the outside layer).

Now this is where the difference lies - the Mishna Berura. This says as many of you hold, all religious books whether handwritten or printed, he equates them to sifrei tora. 2 coverings. However, Mishna Berura quotes responsa that in a case where you have nothing to cover them then there are leniencies and it is ok to have s e x without them covered (so in the case of a guest with no way of covering them this would be the case). Sifrei tora and tefillin do not come under this leniency, they must have the 2 coverings as specified earlier. Just as with the question on Rambam leaving out tefillin, where Mishna Berura comes up with this addition is puzzling. It doesn't take away from people who hold by the Mishna Berura doing so though.

The Mishna Berura is held only by Ashkenazim (almost all) but not sepharadim. As such, sepharadim have no halachic necessity to cover books, only sifrei tora and tefillin.

As for us, we are sepharadi but Rambamim, we hold by him exclusively. As such we need only cover a kasher sefer tora (actually it's supposed to be removed or the couple should go to a different house as preference but not many of us have more than one!)

[So I guess I was both right and wrong and I should be more specific when I ask my husband a question so he doesn't think I'm asking just for us Wink

Showing guests where the linen closet is should they need more blankets/sheets/towels etc as I usually do should still be sufficient for any guests that hold differently, not that we have a guest room or sleeping arrangements for married couples right now anyway, only a sofa bed in the loungeroom where there are no books and a top bunk in the older boys' room.]

prettyone

Sun, Jan 17 2010, 4:36 pm

Ruchel wrote:

honey your the one who mentioned it as though its a normal thing to do to a guest, not me.

dont say things that can be interpreted the wrong way and then get mad when exactly that happens.

contrary to what you may believe I dont spend my time analyzing your comments to figure out what you are trying to say and with what tone of voice.

Ruchel

Sun, Jan 17 2010, 4:38 pm

prettyone wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

Well I guess you can't imagine someone talking of something they don't do. Sad.