Family dilema....who to take as Mohel for the bris????

chaylizi

Tue, Mar 16 2010, 9:57 am

life'sgreat wrote:

MommyZ wrote:

I have had my dr ask me if it's ok if his student/s could watch and had no problem with it. I did have a problem with several interns in my delivery room with baby one arguing over who should deliver my baby when I was fully dilated ready to push and they wanted to do c-sections.

Not fun! I wouldn't be a happy camper.

I have no problem with residents & students (I remember being kicked out of a labor as a student, for standing quietly in the corner & observing), but they need to be quiet & go with the flow of how I want my delivery to go (& preferably be female). I agree with Shalhevet. Birth is not a spectator sport. With my 2nd baby- a resident felt like giving me an episiotomy & the doctor banished her to the corner I had already kicked another one out for being snotty & know it allish)
With my 3rd baby, my doctor practically gagged the resident so she wouldn't say out loud that the baby was posterior & he needed to turn it. I was perfectly happy to think everything was fine & just a few more pushes.

There is knowing what to do & then there is experience & they are not the same thing.

Last edited by chaylizi on Tue, Mar 16 2010, 10:02 am; edited 1 time in total

Raisin

Tue, Mar 16 2010, 11:18 am

GR wrote:

I'll never forget my midwife kicking the hospital big doctors out of the room by delivery. I didn't even have to ask. An awesome moment.

Plenty of other people in this world for residents (and doctors) to practice on. I'll do my own thing without them, thank you.

one good thing about using midwives is that student midwives are almost always female. Although I have a friend who is studying midwifery and she just delivered her first baby, after all of 6 months studying. shock

chaylizi

Tue, Mar 16 2010, 11:21 am

Raisin wrote:

GR wrote:

the actual nurses are 99% of the time are only female too. the male nursing students get into trouble because they have to take the course & no one (staff or ladies in labor or pp) want them there.

amother

Tue, Mar 16 2010, 11:24 am

This is going way OT, but, if I gave birth in a hospital, there's no way I'd allow male students in the room. The fewer people there, the better, IMO. Of course, there will always be people who don't mind (and they don't need to be frum women), so the students will eventually end up with enough observation and practice.

I do think it is a little funny that people would not let anyone inexperienced handle the "delivery". There's also no way I'd let a student do an epidural or make decisions about anything complicated, but the delivery? Maybe some of the doctors and/or nurses will disagree, but unless there is some kind of situation, the delivery doesn't require much skill. I "delivered" two of my kids myself, meaning that no one else was touching them or catching them when they came out. In a normal birth, there is no method or special maneuver that really needs to be done. The baby just comes out. That's it people.

I'm amother because I got a little personal about my births, not because of my other comments. Some people who know me will probably recognize me, but that's okay. Smile

amother

Tue, Mar 16 2010, 11:29 am

Raisin wrote:

Although I have a friend who is studying midwifery and she just delivered her first baby, after all of 6 months studying. shock

I don't mean to devalue the skills and knowledge of midwives (or doctors, nurses, etc.), but I am sure your friend was under supervision and it just isn't that complicated to catch a baby. It seems to be a moment that everyone focuses on, but many other aspects of prenatal, birth, and postpartum care are much more complicated, requiring more skill, experience, and knowledge.

life'sgreat

Tue, Mar 16 2010, 12:00 pm

shalhevet wrote:

Why don't you get the attitude? I'm not telling anyone else what to do either - everyone can make their own choice. But, as GR said, when I make a choice for my children I do what's best for them, not what is best for someone else - and that goes for a doctor, teacher, mohel and all the rest.

As far as male student doctors/ nurses (which another poster mentioned) watching anything more than treatment to a finger - and most certainly a birth, I'm not so sure it's allowed according to halacha. A male doctor is allowed to see your normally covered body parts to treat you, not to study medicine.

BTW, I hope you are always willing to spend more money on the same product in a small store which needs the business.

A mohel should be chosen for his skill at mila and yiras Shamayim (in that order), not for giving someone else parnasa or not offending someone.

Ok.

I had females watching me AFAIR. The doctor asked if I mind that she watch because I had unusual tears that he doesn't get to stitch up too often and it would be a great learning experience for her.

No, I don't do that. I don't see the comparison.

You're right. And I don't think I said otherwise. I simply said that sometimes it isn't the case (with the proper precautions takes).

louche

Tue, Mar 16 2010, 1:34 pm

You may as well learn this now because you're going to be a parent for a long time. Go with your gut. You have to have confidence in anyone doing anything with/for/to your child, as much for your own sake as for your child's. If you lack confidence in your bil--and who can blame you--then choose someone more experienced. Your bil will sense your lack of confidence even if you try to hide it, and that will be worse than not choosing him. If your bil is a mature adult--by which I mean emotionally mature, not over 40--he'll understand.

B"H

Tue, Mar 16 2010, 2:21 pm

GR wrote:

Easily?

You don't know if it's going to be "easily" until ex post facto.

That's usually not true, but even if it were that isn't the point. My point wasn't that the BRIS will go easily, (although I hope it does!!!) my point was that using her brother-in-law and at the same time ensuring her baby's safety is easy if she has an experienced mohel there.

amother

Tue, Mar 16 2010, 2:23 pm

I also think
1- get references like you would for anyone else
2- have an experienced mohel standing by & tell bil it's your hormones & he shouldn't be insulted
3- have pediarician check baby to see if there are any noticable reasons that a bris will be more complicated

Mommy3.5

Tue, Mar 16 2010, 3:23 pm

life'sgreat wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

I seem to remember in halacha the first thing it says about a mohel is that he should be good at his job, even before yiras shamayim.

Too bad, everyone can be offended. You have to do what is best for your baby. Just say you're really sorry but you decided to take someone more experienced (making up stories is always worse than the truth).

B"H, too bad for the new mohelim. In the end someone will use them and they'll learn. My baby comes first.

I don't get the attitude of someone else will use them and they'll learn. And I'm not referring specifically to mohalim. I hear this all the time about refusing to have students etc... observe you in the hospital. How do we expect our doctors etc.. if we don't let them learn? If the doctor, lawyer or mohel is good and safe (obviously we wouldn't want a student doctor performing heart surgery on us) and the doctor just wants to watch, why we would one tell them no? If I had five nurses in the room during my delivery, why would I care if there was another person in there observing the doctor stitching me up my tears?

Do you really not understand why one would not want an inexperienced person operating on their child?

I do not want a resident dealing with my child in the hospital, because, I think I have seen more cases of anaphalaxis than they did. I felt like I had to tell them what to do, so forgive me, but IME, experts are better then newbies.

Chloe

Tue, Mar 16 2010, 5:39 pm

Quote:

You don't always have a choice. As I mentioned before I had a frum male student in the room observing by my first delivery. It was a long and very painful delivery and at that point I basically had strength left just to breathe. I remember feeling so uncomfortable and thinking Oh my not this, please get out, it's so inappropriate. But I had no strength in me to think rationally never mind to say anything. Afterwards I was upset why I didn't get him out of there but knew that I couldn't blame myself being in the position I was in.

Rodent

Tue, Mar 16 2010, 6:37 pm

I had a student midwife deliver my 2nd baby. It was by far the best birth experience. Her mentor was wonderful and I trusted them both innately. I had given permission for her to do ANYTHING needed for her education, most things were done by the mentor AND the student and they'd discuss everything. I liked knowing what was going on. I would CHOOSE a student if I could for future deliveries. I have no problem with them being male (but have not had male practitioners at my births thus far). They also need to learn somewhere. I know of a male midwife at a local hospital. Someone mentioned learning being a problem but practicing not, they can't practice without learning first, it doesn't work. I use a teaching hospital so it's always possible but thus far I've only had that one experience.

That said, with the mohel I'd go the person you trust the most as some may say it's not complicated but it can be rather life altering should something go wrong... The excuse that you don't like to use family or friends in case things go wrong is a good one and I would personally use that.

amother

Tue, Mar 16 2010, 6:48 pm

Chloe wrote:

Quote:

I am that amother.

What you wrote isn't "not having a choice", it's just that you weren't in a state do something about the situation, which is very understandable given what you were going through. Many people hire doulas or bring other support people to avoid having to think much about these kinds of things in labor.

In any case, I am not familiar with all hospital's policies, or all the different situations that could come up. It could well be that there are scenarios where there is no choice. This is one of many reasons I chose to homebirth, because I want total control over who will be witnessing the birth unless there is, CV"S, an emergency situation.

chaylizi

Tue, Mar 16 2010, 6:53 pm

As much as I hate to say it, there are doctors who won't give you a choice in a teaching hospital. Apparently, you signed away the rights to who gets to be in the peanut gallery. I would recommend checking with your doctor, to see what his/her opinions on the subject are.

Of course, advance planning sometimes means nothing. My second dr was delivered by the staff OB on call & some random resident. My doctor didn't make it. And he lives pretty close to the hospital. Baby wasn't waiting for anyone.

amother

Tue, Mar 16 2010, 7:04 pm

I was in a similar situation as you, OP, with a relative, except I wanted to use him (even though others thought I was crazy). I knew that as part of his training he performed quite a few britot (he said he sometimes did more than a dozen in a day) and I also find this relative to be an extremely careful and meticulous personality in general. I was not wrong, he was amazing, and we have used him a few times, b'h.

I also know quite a few mistakes made by seasoned, expert mohelim. Sometimes a set of fresh eyes and desire to prove yourself to be competent is worth a lot.

red sea

Tue, Mar 16 2010, 7:06 pm

On the orig topic; if you dont want bil to be the mohel I think you should speak up now with the doubt of whether it will be boy or girl still on everyone elses minds. I would tell your sister you were thinking about it and if it is a boy in the end you think you would be too nervous to have bil be the mohel. What if you have complaints or think it wasn't such a good job - you would rather be angry at a stranger than to stir a mess into the family.

Mommy3.5

Tue, Mar 16 2010, 7:36 pm

chaylizi wrote:

some residents are better than others. you don't have to let them treat your kid, but you don't have to write them all off collectively either. I have known lousy, mediocre & really excellent residents.

When your child is in desparate need for care, you don't have the time for them to find a "real" doctor. Many times there is just a resident.

In a situation where there is a choice, I would go with who has the most experience. Especially with mila, which is a surgery, as well as a religious rite. Even though now it is not common for children to die from these procedures, it was not always that way. There was considered to be a real sakana attached to mila, and I take that seriously.

amother

Tue, Mar 16 2010, 7:46 pm

it is not so simple, that you just cut here- brissim can get messed up.
we "had" to use a mohel who is a friend and even tho I was realllly not happy with it we used him.
had a horrible experience- he cut too much and my son may need reconstroctive plastic surgery.

then my friend who knew about my experience used him. also a friend of theirs.
and he messed up again with cutting too little. that poor boy will need another bris. and until then his parents have to slide the shaft up each day, casueing him to bleed becasue the membrane reattatched itself.

choose carefully.