need lots of neshomos for moshiach to come? pls explain

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Need lots of neshomos for moshiach to come? pls explain

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TzenaRena

Thu, Jun 29 2006, 10:24 am

healthymama wrote:

Here is the quote from sanhedrin :

Quote:

Rab said: The world was created only on David's account .24 Samuel said: On Moses account;25 R. Johanan said: For the sake of the Messiah. What is his [the Messiah's] name? — The School of R. Shila said: His name is Shiloh, for it is written, until Shiloh come.26 The School of R. Yannai said: His name is Yinnon, for it is written, His name shall endure for ever:27 e'er the sun was, his name is Yinnon.28 The School of R. Haninah maintained: His name is Haninah, as it is written, Where I will not give you Haninah.29 Others say: His name is Menahem the son of Hezekiah, for it is written, Because Menahem ['the comforter'], that would relieve my soul,

There is more than one opinion on this matter. In fact, the previous line from the daf says as follows :

Quote:

This was said in opposition to R. Hillel, who maintained that there will be no Messiah for Israel, since they have already enjoyed him during the reign of Hezekiah.23

The purpose of creating the world is a much debated topic and no one answer is considered final.

Although there is debate, the halacha is as the previous opinion. Before the halacha is decided, there is room for the various opinions, but afterward, one who does not believe in Moshiach is considered a Kofer. See RamBam, hilchos Melochim Ch. 11, halacha 1.

Quote:

" and whoever does not believe in him, or does not await his coming - not (only) in the other remaining Neviim is he Kofer, but in the Torah and in Moshe Rabbenu. Since the Torah has testified on him, as stated " and G-d will return your captives and have mercy upon you and will return and gather etc. if your cast-offs will be at the edge of the heavens etc. and G-d will bring you. (Devorim 30: 3-5) etc."

In the rest of halacha 1 and 2 the Rambam brings various other sources in Torah, including the "Parsha of Bilaam"...that prophesied about the first moshiach, Dovid and the final Moshiach, a descendant of his that will redeem Israel in the final Redemption.

RAMBAM clearly rules that the Melech ha Moshiach is a person, of the House of David, and he will bring about the final Redemption, gather the Jews from Exile, and build the Beis HaMikdash, and will bring the entire world to serve Hashem in unison.

It is often pointed out that all the other Poskim concur with the RamBam as seen in the fact that none of his opponents such as the Raavad comment against his ruling in Mishneh Torah, which is a sefer of Halachos, and not of commentary, or philosophy, as other of his works e.g. Pirush HaMishnayos, Moreh nevuchim etc.

Last edited by TzenaRena on Thu, Jun 29 2006, 10:35 am; edited 1 time in total

happy2beme

Thu, Jun 29 2006, 10:31 am

THANK YOU CRAYON!!!!!
Cheers

healthymama

Thu, Jun 29 2006, 10:34 am

sarayehudis, what is the point of your post. I didn't say I hold like R. hillel. The discussion is whether or not the gemara concludes that the world was created only for moshiach and I just said that there are a variety of opinions, no conclusions on the purpose of world.

TzenaRena

Thu, Jun 29 2006, 10:46 am

To mummyofsix, what I'm bringing out is that we cannot fulfill the purpose of the world to learn Torah and do mitzvos properly or completely in times of golus. Therefore we need Moshiach to "bring back all the mishpotim".

So the purpose of the world IS to bring Moshiach, which doesn't cease with his coming, but continues throughout the entire Yemos HaMoshiach.

To healthy mama, the opinion of Rabbi Hillel is not the accepted one, and there IS a final answer, not as you conclude, and that's what the point of my post is.

Motek

Thu, Jun 29 2006, 10:59 am

mummyof6 wrote:

only someone who thinks the purpose of us being here is to bring the mashiach could write this. Our purpose in life is not to bring Mashiach. It says this nowhere at all

Do you now concede that you were ignorant on this subject (though expressed a definite opinion anyway)?

[I wouldn't normally press this point, asking you to acknowledge your error, except that your point was expressed quite rudely:

Quote:

(except in Chabad handouts) Our purpose in life is to serve Hashem by keeping His Torah and mitzvos, and learning Torah.

indeed, what are "handouts"? Are there also "mussar handouts"? Is that how you refer to the teachings of tzadikim and Torah greats?]

For much more on the subject of the purpose of creation, see the thread:

"Purpose of Creation - Understanding Sin and Punishment"

in this section of the forum.

shalhevet

Thu, Jun 29 2006, 11:02 am

SaraYehudis wrote:

agreed

Quote:

So the purpose of the world IS to bring Moshiach, which doesn't cease with his coming, but continues throughout the entire Yemos HaMoshiach.

The world will reach its ideal state when Mashiach comes. But we don't have to do anything about it (except daven in the way that Chazal taught us)[/quote]

Motek

Thu, Jun 29 2006, 11:18 am

mummyof6 wrote:

The world will reach its ideal state when Mashiach comes. But we don't have to do anything about it (except daven in the way that Chazal taught us)

Yet the Gemara tells us of what actions we can take to hasten his coming:

1) "Tziyon b'mishpat tipadeh, v'shaveha b'tzedaka" - justice and tzedaka

and Chazal say (Shabbos 139a) Israel will be redeemed only by virtue of tzedaka

2) don't have to do anything except daven? what's "except" about that?! The Chofetz Chaim says we must demand Moshiach as a worker demands his wages!

Who are we kidding when we say the words of the davening but then go about our lives without a thought about Moshiach? If we sincerely want him, then everything we do is with the intention of bringing about Hashem's plan for creation.

3) undoing sinas chinam which brought about the churban

4) The Medrash (Vayikra Rab 7:3) says that the exiles will be gathered by virtue of the study of Mishnayos

5) if we all kept one (or two) Shabbosos, Moshiach would come

and many more things

the bottom line: if we truly cared about Moshiach's coming, we'd want to know what to do to bring him faster

TzenaRena

Thu, Jun 29 2006, 11:26 am

stem wrote:

When mashiach comes, there'll be women who are still pregnant, right? Does that mean that those soon to be born babies are not part of the grand plan?

It takes nine months for a baby to be born, correspondingly or because it takes nine months for a neshomo to descend....... (or is it a year, as I recall somewhere in Likuttei Dibburim from the Previous Lubavitcher Rebbe) anyhow, the neshomos that are conceived, but yet unborn, are already in the process of descent. So of course they are part of the Grand Plan....

gryp

Thu, Jun 29 2006, 3:10 pm

Quote:

As I understood, GR is saying that if our purpose in life is to bring the mashiach then once he has come, what purpose is left?

not exactly.
Crayon (thank you!) explained what I meant, I was just continuing the conversation with more questions.

of course I know what the purpose of the world is once Moshiach comes. Thank you SaraYehudis for writing it out with the proper quote.

Quote:

I don't know how to say this nicely,(I am honestly not trying to bash) but only someone who thinks the purpose of us being here is to bring the mashiach could write this. Our purpose in life is not to bring Mashiach. It says this nowhere at all (except in Chabad handouts) Our purpose in life is to serve Hashem by keeping His Torah and mitzvos, and learning Torah.

mummyof6, I'm reading your comment without being offended as you meant it to be. please allow me the same courtesy as I write this:
I know where you stand on Chabad, since youve clearly stated your position many times.
What astonishes me is your ignorance. You are well-versed in other topics, but on this one, if you would learn just a little more, you would realize how wrong you are.

and like Motek, I'm wondering what "Chabad handouts" are?

Crayon210

Thu, Jun 29 2006, 3:39 pm

GR wrote:

Crayon (thank you!) explained what I meant, I was just continuing the conversation with more questions.

(This is a typical GR-ism. I have a feeling she's a teacher-or should be!)

gryp

Thu, Jun 29 2006, 4:30 pm

goodness, Crayon embarrassed

, you are very observant. embarrassed

stem

Thu, Jun 29 2006, 5:50 pm

SaraYehudis wrote:

stem wrote:

When mashiach comes, there'll be women who are still pregnant, right? Does that mean that those soon to be born babies are not part of the grand plan?

according to this opinion, no babies will be concieved after mashiach comes? all the neshamos will be born, and then there'll be no more births?

TzenaRena

Thu, Jun 29 2006, 9:09 pm

actually, many more births will occur when Moshiach comes, and it even says that a woman will conceive, and give birth that day! "two went up... and (x amount - more) came down". (will have to find the exact quote).

Presumably, the Neshomos that originate in the storehouse of Guf will be finished, but the neshamos that will arrive during the Yemos haMoshiach will be of a different (higher) source, and fulfilling a different role.

happy2beme

Fri, Jun 30 2006, 10:15 am

Quote:

and it even says that a woman will conceive, and give birth that day!

after I read what stem wrote, I was going to excitedly write the above but SaraYehudis beat me to the chase!

I learnt this in HS & I always think about it- what a brocho to conceive & give birth in 1 day- I can't wait Smile

Mommy912

Fri, Jun 30 2006, 1:31 pm

The thought of suddenly waking up tomorow and giving birth is a bit earthshattering for me.
This puts a whole new spin on mikva night.

Motek

Thu, Jul 20 2006, 2:38 pm

mummyof6 wrote:

The world will reach its ideal state when Mashiach comes. But we don't have to do anything about it (except daven in the way that Chazal taught us)

I'd like to add to what I wrote earlier on this page to show how mistaken this idea is.

Regarding what I wrote earlier, that the Chofetz Chaim says we must demand the Geula as a worker who asks for his wages, the source is C.C. in his Likut al Ha'Siddur, siman 168. He says that the din is that if he does not demand it there is no obligation to give him his wages that day, so too we must demand the Geula because if we don't, then it shows that the matter isn't that urgent.

Look in "Likutei Chofetz Chaim al Dei'ah V'Hashkafa" p. 544 where the C.C. says "it is in our hands to hasten the Geula by doing teshuva shleima and preparing ourselves with Torah and maasim tovim."

p. 555 the heading says, "If we truly and wholeheartedly waited for Moshiach, he would come immediately."

the heading on p. 563 says, "Tefilla Mekareves Ha'Geula" and the C.C. writes that it's not enough to daven silently as we do every day but we must gather together and cry out to Hashem like with the recitation of Avinu Malkeinu etc."

Motek

Tue, May 13 2008, 4:35 pm

In the memorial book I am reading about Rebbetzin Yehudis Perlow a'h (Novominsk) one woman wrote:

"I remember the Rebbetzin speaking at a Friday night shiur. She stressed that our role as women and mothers is to be mekarev the Geula by all of our actions. That was how she strove to live her own life!"

flowerpower

Tue, May 13 2008, 5:51 pm

I have heard it, a teacher once said that why there are so many multiples, bec there are so many that need to come in this world. my cousin keeps popping em bec she believes her duty is to bring moshiach. I dont believe it though. it will happen when we are all good or when time comes.

Motek

Tue, May 13 2008, 9:04 pm

What don't you believe - the Chazal? Confused

momof6

Tue, May 13 2008, 11:05 pm

shalhevet wrote:

Are you implying that Chabad makes up ideas and prints up handouts full of source-less material ? I am really surprised at you!

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