FFB's: Why are you frum?

tzipp

Tue, Jul 04 2006, 5:33 pm

"because Hashem said so" does not indicate emuna- it could indicate doing things because you are used to them because you were raised that way. It is not a specific statement. The choice- "because it is logical/because I believe it it truth" seems to refer to Emuna more (at least part 2 of that statement.

Motek- I think I and some other posters agree with youm but we are just arguing semantics.

red sea

Tue, Jul 04 2006, 5:35 pm

Motek wrote:

red sea wrote:

Then according to this logic there is no difference between Hashem said so and because I was raised that way.

I don't follow that.

Because I was raised that way may or may not have anything to do with Hashem saying so.

Because if you are ffb you start out life doing things cuz your parents tell you to, your parents tell you we do this cuz were jewish and hashem gave us mitzvos.

Now how does one go about switching to only 'cuz Hashem said so',

if they never underwent thought processes in their head and realized on their own that Hashem and the Torah are the truth

- then move from I do it cuz my parents say this is what Hashem wants from me -

to -

I know the Torah is the truth and I do the mitzvos cuz Hashem commanded me to.

amother

Tue, Jul 04 2006, 10:19 pm

I clicked the second to last option instead of the last option. Confused

queen

Wed, Jul 05 2006, 9:08 am

Yael wrote:

B/c the Torah is true and b/c Hashem said so, are the same thing.
and b/c the Torah makes sense is not the same as b/c I think the Torah is true.

same thoughts were going through my head.
Nice topic motek

Motek

Thu, Jul 06 2006, 11:40 am

tzipp wrote:

"because Hashem said so" does not indicate emuna- it could indicate doing things because you are used to them because you were raised that way.

See the other choices! I provided a choice of upbringing and made that separate from "because Hashem said so."

RedSea - Of course we do things for a combination of reasons. The poll question is what is the MAIN motivator and I'm talking about now, today. Not when you were five when the answer would be it's because that's what my parents taught me.

Quote:

The choice- "because it is logical/because I believe it it truth" seems to refer to Emuna more

no!
logic is not emuna though I find that sometimes this is confused!

shabbatiscoming

Thu, Jul 06 2006, 12:14 pm

Quote:

A bit of all except pressure, as there is no pressure except for the worst things (intermariages for examples). I would even say sometimes there is community pressure to be less frum.
- because I was raised that way, and I loved every second of my childhood
- because I believe this is the right way, and the only good way for a Jew - the laws are there for a reason!
- because it is the best way to fight intermariage, assimilation, low birth rates, risky/immoral behaviours... the advantages of being frum are definitely not exclusively spiritual, although in every day life it is more difficult than frei life!
- because it compensates for the people we lost during the shoah and is a huge revenge on the germans.

The two last reasons are also the reasons why I want to raise my kids even frummer than I was raised.

ruchel, I love your reasons. they are great and they are soooooo true.

saratzacha wrote:

mummyof6 wrote:

I don't know how you define an FFB. I'm not really either a BT or an FFB because I'm from a MO home and am now Yeshivish.

I am frum because-
It's the Truth.

I just want to add a comment, perhaps slightly off the topic. First, I think it's very interesting that we get to "know" people here without seeing them which leads to much less judging. Maybe we see much more how "frum" someone is from her attitudes without meeting her first and seeing exactly how she is dressed. Another thing (and I am not aiming this at anyone in particular) there are sometimes when I am really amazed what is important to frum women, and what priorities they have. I honestly don't have anyone particular in mind but I sometimes get the feeling that there are some really frum women with very non jewish attitudes to certain things. Maybe the FFB world needs to put more emphasis on teaching hashkafa and the beauty and value of Torah. I feel there are some FFBs who have missed out on the education which a BT gets in seminary etc while becoming frum.

I second the feelings w/ some of the already ffb world. It is really confusing to go into the frum world with impressions of all the Torah idealism taught by both the kiruv Rabbis and BT yeshivahs and see that there is an element of FFBs who dress VERY frum on the outside but lack the many of the true Torah values on the inside. It makes a BT go "huh?" It seeems people easily get lost in chumras and forget about laws in treatment of your fellow Jew,lashon hara, etc. etc.

I am going to say that I also agree with this and I am FFB. sometimes you see jews that are differently religious than you and they act with no derch eretz at all and you wonder how they call themselves jewish.

I also will say that growing up I was frum b/c my parents were frum and that was what we did.
but growing up I began to see the beauty in the mitzvot and realized that there is just no other way to live but the orthodox lifestyle.

Motek

Thu, Jul 06 2006, 12:17 pm

ytwh1 wrote:

but growing up I began to see the beauty in the mitzvot and realized that there is just no other way to live but the orthodox lifestyle.

But nobody (not you) has voted in the poll for the beauty reason! Confused

tzipp

Thu, Jul 06 2006, 12:30 pm

tzipp wrote:

The choice- "because it is logical/because I believe it it truth" seems to refer to Emuna more (at least part 2 of that statement.)

To me "because Hashem said so" doesn't indicate Emuna necessarily. It comes after Emuna.

shabbatiscoming

Thu, Jul 06 2006, 12:36 pm

Motek wrote:

ytwh1 wrote:

but growing up I began to see the beauty in the mitzvot and realized that there is just no other way to live but the orthodox lifestyle.

But nobody (not you) has voted in the poll for the beauty reason! Confused

because it is not only that. it is part because of the beauty and part because of how I grew up.

Ruchel

Thu, Jul 06 2006, 1:30 pm

ytwh1 wrote:

ruchel, I love your reasons. they are great and they are soooooo true.

Thanks!

I thought of another one, actually it's something my father says. When you are frum, your frum ancestors "look at you" from gan eden and are happy that their struggles weren't wasted time, energy or lo aleinu suffering. And it must also be very annoying to uncle Dolfy when a Jewish family that became frei after the shoah goes back to the initial state as if he just never existed.

That's what I always tell my frei cousins or frei Ashkenazim in general and how I motivated one of my cousins to send her son to Jewish school. It was too sad, her grandfather was ultra Orthodox, and her father is a huge atheist because the grandfather forced him to keep the payes and the tsitsis while hiding from the Germans... she was raised like that since b'h he married a Jew, but she is now traditional trying to become traditionalist (and her father doesn't help, believe me).
But it's a double edged sword, this argument can either totally convince or make people answer they don't care about living for their ancestors or compensating for the past and they are only interested in themselves and having a "fun" life. Crying

Blossom

Tue, Jul 11 2006, 1:19 am

Quote:

The two last reasons are also the reasons why I want to raise my kids even frummer than I was raised.

Kol Hakovod Ruchel!!!!!

amother

Tue, Jul 11 2006, 9:39 am

Quote:

thought of another one, actually it's something my father says. When you are frum, your frum ancestors "look at you" from gan eden and are happy that their struggles weren't wasted time, energy or lo aleinu suffering. And it must also be very annoying to uncle Dolfy when a Jewish family that became frei after the shoah goes back to the initial state as if he just never existed.

yes but we should be frum for other ppl. it should come from within us. thats one reason why chassidus is so helpful.

Motek

Tue, Jul 11 2006, 10:12 am

Ruchel wrote:

When you are frum, your frum ancestors "look at you" from gan eden and are happy that their struggles weren't wasted time, energy or lo aleinu suffering.

Good point. In fact, that could/should have been another choice in the poll:

Because I don't want to break the chain linking me back to my ancestors.

Yael

Tue, Jul 11 2006, 11:14 am

Quote:

Quote:
The choice- "because it is logical/because I believe it it truth" seems to refer to Emuna more

no!
logic is not emuna though I find that sometimes this is confused!

b/c I believe (which = emunah) that the torah was given by Hashem and since I believe in Hashem, I believe in Torah.
and since the Torah says what we should do, and says "ubacharta bechaim"- choose life" that is what I do.
so that is a combination of both the last 2 options.

I know you meant that the second to last option should be because it makes sense without emunah having anything to do with it. but people voted based on the "believe in torah" part which is emunah.

Motek

Tue, Jul 11 2006, 11:51 am

I don't "believe" that the Torah was given by Hashem. I know it to be true as the pasuk says, "Ata horeisa lo'daas ..." you were shown to know. Mattan Torah was a sensory experience. The Jews saw and heard the Giving of the Torah.

Millions of Jews were there and transmitted their experience in an unbroken chain down to me.

This is a fact, not an article of faith. There is no 'ani maamin' about this.

healthymama

Tue, Jul 11 2006, 1:49 pm

Quote:

I don't "believe" that the Torah was given by Hashem...
This is a fact, not an article of faith. There is no 'ani maamin' about this.

the 6th -9th ani maamins.

shayna82

Tue, Jul 11 2006, 1:52 pm

yes, thats right. there is an ani mamin that says, I believe the torah was given to Moshe.

Motek

Tue, Jul 11 2006, 6:56 pm

You two had me scared there for a minute! Wink

It's definitely neither the 6th (that the words of the prophets are true) nor the 9th (that this Torah will not be exchanged nor will there be another Torah). Even the 8th is not quite what I'm talking about. The 8th says that we believe that the entire Torah that we have now is the same Torah that was given to Moshe. That's close but what I wrote was that knowing that Mattan Torah happened is not an article of faith.

On the contrary, one of the Six Remembrances is remembering the receiving of the Torah on Har Sinai:

" ... lest you forget the things your eyes have seen ... and you are to make them known to your children .. the day you stood before Hashem, your G-d, at Sinai."

Ruchel

Wed, Jul 12 2006, 3:47 pm

Blossom wrote:

Quote:

The two last reasons are also the reasons why I want to raise my kids even frummer than I was raised.

Kol Hakovod Ruchel!!!!!

Thanks. It's normal for me you know, I didn't become frummer to go back to my initial state when I have kids... Very Happy

Ruchel

Wed, Jul 12 2006, 3:48 pm

amother wrote:

Quote:

yes but we should be frum for other ppl. it should come from within us. thats one reason why chassidus is so helpful.

If you do it for people you like, it (also) comes from within you, esp. if you feel a strong link with your ancestors, which we definitely do in my family.