Purpose of Creation - Understanding Sin and Punishment

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hadasa

Sun, Mar 13 2005, 2:28 am

sarahd wrote:

Maybe retzon Hashem is that I do mitzvos so that He can grant me a chelek in olam haba? We know that Hashem created the world in order leheitiv im briosov.

sarahd- Chabad Chassidus teaches that the primary reason for Creation is that Hashem wanted a Dirah Besachtonim, and all other reasons, Lehaitiv im Briosov etc. are branches off of that main reason. But these issues are very deep and complicated and really need a full course in Chabad Chassidus to understand, not a casual conversation on a forum.

I wouldn't mind elaborating some more on the differences between general Chassidishe, Chabad, and Litvishe Hashkafah, but I'm afraid of just adding to the friction apparent on this thread, so if anyone's interested in my thoughts on this issue, please PM me.

(Not that I'm that much of an expert, but I did grow up in a community that was a mixture of Chassidish/Litvish, went to Bais Yaakov there and continued in Chabad seminaries, so I've had ample opportunity to form my opinions!)

gryp

Sun, Mar 13 2005, 7:42 am

Quote:

a question: how do chasidim approach the Holocaust & the Tzunami?

in a famous sicha from the Rebbe, the Rebbe says, (paraphrased) we are not to say that the Holocaust was a punishment from Hashem! we dont know why Hashem did this. I think I posted it in a thread here once, ill try and find it.

as far as the tzunami goes, never once did it cross my mind to think of it as a punishment from Hashem until I read these posts. it is not the Chassidishe way of thinking.

personally I think its condescending and not very nice to look across the world to where there is a disaster, and say: "See, your being punished because you were bad!" That reminds me of the time I was in Bnei Brak and a few people were trying to convince me that the reason people were being blown up Fri night in nightclubs is because they were being mechalel shabbos! I think its an outrageous and arrogant thing to say, as if we know why Hashem does things.

Quote:

I am very dissappointed when I see people distance themself from others b/c of "Art though holier"

im still not sure where the holier than thou part came into this discussion. just because im comparing people doesnt mean I think one's better or worse.

gryp

Sun, Mar 13 2005, 8:10 am

I found my post from the other thread:

from chabad.org

What the Rebbe Said (And Didn't Say) About the Holocaust
By Yanki Tauber

The Lubavitcher Rebbe is widely recognized as one who played a singular role in defining post-Holocaust Jewry. But what did the Rebbe say and teach about that event itself?

Like millions of his generation, the Lubavitcher Rebbe was personally touched by the Holocaust. His younger brother, DovBer, was shot to death and thrown into a mass grave, as were tens of thousands of other Jews in a series of massacres conducted by the Germans shortly after their occupation of Dnepropetrovsk in the fall of 1941. A beloved grandmother and other family members were also killed. The Rebbe's wife lost her younger sister Sheina, who perished in Treblinka together with her husband and their adopted son.

In his writings and discussions on the subject, the Rebbe rejected all theological explanations for the Holocaust. What greater conceit -- the Rebbe would say -- and what greater heartlessness, can there be than to give a "reason" for the death and torture of millions of innocent men, women and children? Can we presume to assume that an explanation small enough to fit inside the finite bounds of human reason can explain a horror of such magnitute? We can only concede that there are things that lie beyond the finite keen of the human mind. Echoing his father-in-law, the Rebbe would say: It is not my task to justify G-d on this. Only G-d Himself can answer for what He allowed to happen. And the only answer we will accept, said the Rebbe, is the immediate and complete Redemption that will forever banish evil from the face of the earth and bring to light the intrinsic goodness and perfection of G-d's creation.

To those who argued that the Holocaust disproves the existence of G-d or His providence over our lives, the Rebbe said: On the contrary -- the Holocaust has decisively disproven any possible faith in a human-based morality. In pre-war Europe, it was the German people who epitomized culture, scientific advance and philosophic morality. And these very same people perpetrated the most vile atrocities known to human history! If nothing else, the Holocaust has taught us that a moral and civilized existence is possible only through the belief in and the acceptance of the Divine authority.

The Rebbe also said: Our outrage, our incessant challenge to G-d over what has occurred -- this itself is a most powerful attestation to our belief in Him and our faith in His goodness. Because if we did not, underneath it all, possess this faith, what is it that we are outraged at? The blind workings of fate? The random arrangement of quarks that make up the universe? It is only because we believe in G-d, because we are convinced that there is right and there is wrong and that right must, and ultimately will, triumph, that we cry out, as Moses did: "Why, my G-d, have you done evil to Your people?!"

But the most important thing about the Holocaust to the Rebbe was not how we do or do not understand it, nor, even, how we memorialize its victims, but what we do about it. If we allow the pain and despair to dishearten us from raising a new generation of Jews with a strong commitment to their Jewishness, then Hilter's "final solution" will be realized, G-d forbid. But if we rebuild, if we raise a generation proud of and committed to their Jewishness, we will have triumphed.

1stimer

Sun, Mar 13 2005, 8:12 am

isn't the highest of avodas hashem someone who does mitzvahs b/c hashem commanded them. Not b/c we will get a reward and not to bring moshiach but because hashem commanded us, plain and simple. Pirkei avos says that we shouldn't be like a servant who serves his master out of fear of punishment we should do it out of love. True we are not all on that level, but that is what we should aspire to.

Re: tsunami and holocaust. there were great gedolim who said that the holocaust was a punishment for the reform movement. Most of us are not on the level to say why x, y or z happened, but we are supposed to learn from our challenges. RAshi says that anything that happens is because of bnei yisrael. So the tsunami happened because of us! we don't know why - but we should look at it and say what can I learn? how can I improve from it?

gryp

Sun, Mar 13 2005, 8:24 am

Quote:

there were great gedolim who said that the holocaust was a punishment for the reform movement.

and this is the exact difference between the Chasidic and non-Chasidic views. the non-Chasidic is more into rebuke, mussar, a harsher way of looking at things. The Chasidic way of thinking is completely different, emphasizing more of a positive way of thinking.

FY- this doesnt mean im saying that Litvaks are always harsh and never positive, we have to realize where the emphasis is though in life.

gryp

Sun, Mar 13 2005, 8:28 am

Quote:

RAshi says that anything that happens is because of bnei yisrael. So the tsunami happened because of us! we don't know why - but we should look at it and say what can I learn? how can I improve from it?

of course everything that happens is because of bnei yisroel, because the world was created for us. but that doesnt mean that everything bad that happens is a punishment! we try and learn and improve from everything we see, even a simple leaf falling to the ground, but again, it doesnt mean that every bad thing that happens is a punishment! it could be just the way Hashem wants things to happen and this is what He thinks is best.

1stimer

Sun, Mar 13 2005, 8:40 am

ok rg, according to chasidim what happens when someone does an aveira?

gryp

Sun, Mar 13 2005, 9:01 am

this leads to a completely different discussion. in short, many things happen: 1)he is using a part of his body for klipah and that part of his body and therefore his entire body is blemished until he does teshuva! 2)it affects the spiritual state of klal yisroel as a whole! 3)unfortunately he draws down energy from kedusha into klipah and therefore puts Hashem into a deeper galus!
there is more but its hard to think of offhand.

1stimer

Sun, Mar 13 2005, 9:07 am

lemme rephrase my question, do chasidim believe we get punished for aveiros?

gryp

Sun, Mar 13 2005, 9:12 am

of course.
there is kaf hakeleh, chibut hakever, gehennom,...
but these are ways for the neshama to be refined before being allowed into gan eden.

1stimer

Sun, Mar 13 2005, 9:23 am

I don't understand those hebrew words you wrote about rg. I also don't understand the chasidic objection to saying something is a punishment. I can understand an objection to me (I.e. a person on my level) saying that discos get bombed because ppl are mechalel shabbos - b/c we don't know the reason - we're not G-d's secretary.

But the fact is that Hashem created the world with a spiritual reality and the reality is such that aveiros get punished. And we are told that if something bad happens to someone they should examine their deeds. Hashem talks about punishments - there is a parsha in the torah dealing with reward and punishment - so why can't chasidim?

gryp

Sun, Mar 13 2005, 9:24 am

(chabad.org)
Is G-d Punishing Us?

Question:
I get the feeling G-d is real angry with us, don't you? How else can you explain all that's happening in Israel? One rabbi told me that G-d stores all the sins of the Jewish People and when they pile up too high, He unleashes His wrath against us.

I'm just not sure what it is He's angry about. Sometimes I think it's because we haven't stood up for our own rights and asserted our rightful claim to this precious gift, the Land of Israel. Or maybe it's because of all the bad talk and in-fighting that goes on. Jews just don't love each other enough. What do you think?

Answer:
I think if that's what G-d is all about -- angry, counting up sins, punishing His children -- I'm signing out.

But it's not. In all the words of the prophets and in the teachings of our sages, our G-d is a compassionate G-d who loves each Jew, even the worst sinner, as His only child. Who sees the heart and the suffering and trials of each one of us and understands and judges accordingly. Who knows what we have suffered, the fire and hell we have been through only because we are His people and will not let Him go. Who cries over every spilled drop of Jewish blood and provides miracles to save us at every turn.

Is this the worst sin of humanity, that we want to live in peace with our neighbors and overestimate their potential to act as decent human beings? That we are sick of war and grasp at any useless straw to save ourselves from it?

If you had a child, an only child, who was too much of a wimp, would you smack him in the face and watch him fall to the ground? Or would you pick him up, build his confidence and his courage and let the whole world know: "This is my child. Don't any of you dare lay a hand on him!"

Over and over, the Lubavitcher Rebbe taught us that instead of finding faults with our own people and psychoanalyzing G-d, we need to do as Moses did in such a situation. To go back to G-d and say, "Why have you done evil to this people? Why have you not redeemed them?" Why do you let Your holy name be so disgraced in the world? How long can this go on for?

This is truly the entire purpose of the Jewish People upon the earth -- to channel the flow of life from above, as a farmer plows his field and digs troughs to channel the rain that falls from above. "Evil does not descend from heaven," said the prophet Jeremiah. All that G-d desires is good. Only that, without our intercession, the flow from above is too powerful and overwhelms our world. Like a hard downpour on an untilled field. So He awaits our prayers to direct that flow of life towards good.

The Jewish people, yourself included and especially those who live in the Land of Israel, are an amazing people, each one of them. I am a proud brother of all of them. If they slip up once in a while, or behave in a way not fitting for a child of the Torah, that is only because G-d has withheld His goodness from them for too long. That is the attitude that will redeem us.

Yes, there are rabbis who talk about G-d's wrath. They believe they can better the Jewish people by pointing out their faults and scaring them with warnings of Divine retribution, as the prophets did. The Rebbe spoke once directly about this attitude. He said there was a prophet named Isaiah who loved every Jew. Because you have to love every Jew to be a prophet. But when G-d first told him to prophesy, he answered, "How can I? I live among a people of impure lips." And for that he was punished. An angel was sent with hot coals to place on his lips. Because he had insulted G-d's people.

And this was a prophet -- not some rabbi guessing G-d's intentions. And a prophet who loved his people, who simply was telling the truth to explain his predicament with no ill intentions. And what was he being sent for, after all, but to rebuke his people!

But if there is one thing our G-d disdains, it is those who bad-talk His kids. And if there is one thing He loves, it is when we love each other and praise all that is good about one other.

As for why all this mess has to happen as it is happening right now -- I'll tell you what Rabbi Yosef Yitzchak, the sixth Lubavitcher Rebbe, had to say concerning the holocaust: "I haven't the slightest motivation to find excuses for G-d." Same here. Better I should spend my time finding excuses for His people.

1stimer

Sun, Mar 13 2005, 9:30 am

So acc. to that how comes we are told that the 3rd beis hamikdash was destroyed and has not been rebuilt because of sinas chinam. how comes moshe was told that because he hit the stone he would not go into eretz yisrael? how comes the dor midbar was told that because they cried over the meraglim's report they would not enter eretz yisrael. in all these instanses they were told they were being punished?

gryp

Sun, Mar 13 2005, 9:37 am

Quote:

But the fact is that Hashem created the world with a spiritual reality and the reality is such that aveiros get punished.

it is not for any one of us to look at another's woes and declare "this is a punishment from Hashem!" if the person wants to do that about himself, that is okay, and there is even such a thing as davening to Hashem for bad things to happen to you so that you can go through it and come out on a higher level closer to Hashem.

but it is not the Chasidic viewpoint that bad things that happen in this world, especially physical bodily afflictions, are punishments.

The Neshama has certain things it has to go through when a person passes away. like I mentioned before kaf hakelah- when the neshama is catapulted from one end of the world to the other, gehennom, etc.... these are punishments, yes, but it is a refining process in order for the neshama to be able to enter gan eden. the Neshama needs to be refined because when a person does aveiros, he begins to have a shell of coarseness around his neshama which grows with each aveira that he does.

gryp

Sun, Mar 13 2005, 9:56 am

events that happened in the times of the Tanach where we have quotes exactly from Hashem and from Neviim are very different than events that happen nowadays.

Quote:

the 3rd beis hamikdash was destroyed and has not been rebuilt because of sinas chinam.

I always learned it was destroyed because of sinas chinam, but not that it hasnt been rebuilt because of sinas chinam! yes, we have to correct what we did then but who knows why now, 2000 years later Hashem hasnt decided yet to rebuild the Beis Hamikdash?

here is how Chassidus explains the two stories you brought up (in the shortest summary I can possible):
1)Moshe did not enter Eretz Yisroel because he needed to be buried just outside Eretz Yisroel for the time of the final Geulah, so he could lead all the others into Eretz Yisroel at the right time. It was complete Mesirus Nefesh (selflessness) as a leader like Moshe always has for his beloved flock, Bnei Yisrael. No matter how much he wanted to enter the land he gave it up for the sake of his people.
2)Bnei Yisroel at the time of the Meraglim didnt want to enter Eretz Yisroel because they had a wonderful time in the desert. Hashem provided everything for them materially, spiritually, they had the mishkan, etc. They knew that once they entered the land they would have to start working for themselves (farming the land, etc.) Chassidus compares this to a Neshama before it is brought down into this world. it doesnt want to come down here to a place where it will have to toil and work, especially when it is so satisfied being close to Hashem up above. The Malach shows the Neshama what is going on down here, the bad and the good, and the Neshama promises to be good, and it receives all the powers it needs to be good when it comes down here.

1stimer

Sun, Mar 13 2005, 10:01 am

RG wrote:

Quote:

But the fact is that Hashem created the world with a spiritual reality and the reality is such that aveiros get punished.

it is not for any one of us to look at another's woes and declare "this is a punishment from Hashem!" if the person wants to do that about himself, that is okay,

I agree, because as I mentioned we're not G-d's secretary we don't know his cheshbon.

Quote:

and there is even such a thing as davening to Hashem for bad things to happen to you so that you can go through it and come out on a higher level closer to Hashem.

pls explain, b/c we daven 'velo al yedei nisayon!?! Exclamation

Quote:

but it is not the Chasidic viewpoint that bad things that happen in this world, especially physical bodily afflictions, are punishments.

1. you still haven't told me why not (see my previous posts)?

2. so why do bad things happen according to chasidim?

1stimer

Sun, Mar 13 2005, 10:08 am

Quote:

events that happened in the times of the Tanach where we have quotes exactly from Hashem and from Neviim are very different than events that happen nowadays.

in that now we don't know the reason why things happen, but just as then there were punishments so too nowadays there are punishments.

gryp

Sun, Mar 13 2005, 10:10 am

Quote:

I agree, because as I mentioned we're not G-d's secretary we don't know his cheshbon.

you got it 100%, and even more than that, we should be looking for the merits in our fellow Jews, not for the sins they do!

Quote:

pls explain, b/c we daven 'velo al yedei nisayon!?!

this is optional of course, not for people who cant handle bad things happening to them.

Quote:

so why do bad things happen according to chasidim?

im going to try and find another article to explain it well. Smile

1stimer

Sun, Mar 13 2005, 10:13 am

Quote:

this is optional of course, not for people who cant handle bad things happening to them.

we can not trust ourselves until the day we die. that is why we daven velo al yedei nisayon.

gryp

Sun, Mar 13 2005, 10:29 am

a few interesting things to read on this topic:

Are We Supposed to be Afraid of G-d?
(AskMoses.com)

Question:

What's all this business about being "G-d fearing"? What are we supposed to be scared of?

Answer:

When we say that a person is "G-d fearing", we don't mean he or she lives in fear that G-d might punch them out for doing the wrong thing. The term for that would be "fear of punishment" (if a great big monster in the sky would be threatening the same, the fear would be the same, right?).

Of course, it's better to do the right thing because one is afraid of punishment than to kill, steal and cheat because the policeman isn't looking and one doesn't believe in a Higher Authority to whom man is answerable for his actions. Still, righteousness that is motivated by fear of punishment does not represent a very high spiritual or moral state of existence.

The Chassidic masters explain the true meaning of "G-d fearing" as a fear of separation from G-d. Like a child who is afraid of being left alone by its mother. So, too, a healthy soul will recoil from certain actions out of the awareness that these actions will place a barrier between herself and her Beloved, between the "spark of G-dliness" it embodies and its Source.

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