Is this a good idea?

amother

Thu, Jul 29 2010, 10:33 pm

I would ask a rav, but if he is okay with it, I would do it. I have a neighbor who sent to a conservative daycare until their child was around 3, and they were thrilled. the program was organized, well-run, clean, and the child was so well-cared for.
I also worked as a camp counselor at a JCC preschool camp, it was jewish but non-denomenational. again, the program was well run and organized and the kids got a nice exposure to judaism. at this age, they are not learning kefirus! if this would make your life easier and make you a better mommy and your child happier and less bored, I would be very open to the idea.

amother

Thu, Jul 29 2010, 11:16 pm

Tehilla wrote:

amother wrote:

If homeschooling would be the norm, I would be thrilled. Ideally I have nothing against it.
Unfortunately, Barbara, its isn't. Until it becomes the norm, it is viewed as being terrible socially.

Why do you care? I'm homeschooling my kids in the heart of Brooklyn. The myth of socialization is such a joke. They learn very well how to share and get along with each other. We go to the park, the museum, and have playdates to meet other children. They order at the bakery and learn how to treat cashiers, mail delivery people, and other delivery guys.

I care more that they grow up healthy mind, body, and soul. There is a major flaw in many chinuch systems, and I will not sacrifice my children to "fit in to some invisible standard." They are so much happier now. I do not know how long I will continue to do this, but wow, we are really happy now! B"H.

Why I care? Because I don't want to be the "pioneer" on my children's cheshbon. So there are problems with schools, and there are big flaws in homeschooling. We go to the park, museums, and bakery, and that is not an education. Children need to learn how to get along with others in this world. School taught me about getting along with all kinds of people. I would like to hear from you after you marry off your children, what they have to say about their homeschooling. In my circles, I would never be able to marry off my children, as homeschooling is just considered too weird for anyone, and I prefer to let my children go through the school system, with all its faults, rather than jeopardize their futures. Glad you are all happy now, wonder how happy you will be in the long run.

aidelmaidel

Fri, Jul 30 2010, 12:38 am

amother wrote:

Tehilla wrote:

amother wrote:

If homeschooling would be the norm, I would be thrilled. Ideally I have nothing against it.
Unfortunately, Barbara, its isn't. Until it becomes the norm, it is viewed as being terrible socially.

Why I care? Because I don't want to be the "pioneer" on my children's cheshbon. So there are problems with schools, and there are big flaws in homeschooling. We go to the park, museums, and bakery, and that is not an education. Children need to learn how to get along with others in this world. School taught me about getting along with all kinds of people. I would like to hear from you after you marry off your children, what they have to say about their homeschooling.
In my circles, I would never be able to marry off my children, as homeschooling is just considered too weird for anyone, and I prefer to let my children go through the school system, with all its faults, rather than jeopardize their futures. Glad you are all happy now, wonder how happy you will be in the long run.

Amother, seriously, I have to ask after reading the above, what is really important to you? Is it that your children get the best care from you or that you are only doing what is expected from you in your community so that your children will get "good shidduchim"?

Because you agree homeschooling is best, but you won't practice it because of what others think? That sounds like religious coercion.

Yes, going to the bakery can be educational - you can ask the baker questions, you can learn about the mitzvah of challah, you can count how many coomkies are in the bag, you can learn about the reaction of the yeast, sugar and water, you can figure out your change, and much much more. It is what you make of it. Child led learning is not just restricted to homeschoolers - you can do all those things with your kid anytime. Or are you too tired to do that?

Baruch Hashem, you made your choices, but is it really neccessary to denigrate other people's choices?

Again, I'm going to ask what exactly have you contributed here that is positive and constructive to the OP?

DrMom

Fri, Jul 30 2010, 4:16 am

aidelmaidel wrote:

I davka wouldn't want my kids to marry someone with such strident parents. Such a person would probably make my child and his/her spouse miserable.

imaima

Fri, Jul 30 2010, 7:16 am

de_goldy wrote:

amother wrote:

I agree with the above poster who said you should ask your Rov.
all I can tell you is that my cousin, who lives in a smaller, OOT city, and had a similar predicament as yours- sent her DS to the local preschool that was part of I guess like a conservative shul. and her DS came home one day and asked his mommy how (some classmate's name) has two mommys.
that can obviously happen anywhere...but ... anywhere but an orthodox school where that is unacceptable. why should the mom of a 3 yr old be forced to answer such questions???

Hate to break it to you but I work in an orthodox school and we have kids with 2 dads, kids with 2 moms and lots of single-mothers-by-choice.

I think she meant gays and lesbians! not those who divorced and remarried

imaima

Fri, Jul 30 2010, 7:17 am

de_goldy wrote:

amother wrote:

Hate to break it to you but I work in an orthodox school and we have kids with 2 dads, kids with 2 moms and lots of single-mothers-by-choice.

I think she meant gays and lesbians! not those who divorced and remarried

Tehilla

Fri, Jul 30 2010, 7:23 am

Thank you aidelmaidel.

amother, if your choices were an unhappy child or off the derech chas v'shalom, versus a happy child educated and nurtured in the way appropriate for him/her what would you do? I already said I am not certain how long term we will go with it, but for now it is certainly the right choice. I am not exactly a pioneer, as there are already many frum homeschooling parents and mor e than one in my own community.

Personally, I don't mind if someone agrees or disagrees with my choice as their opinion is simply an opinion. I sought out a Rav and guidance from those near and dear to us. I DO have a problem when people are as exquisitely rude as you have been.

I am happy that the Aibishter is in charge of shidduchim (and everything else) and that I do not need to worry but daven for the right person at the right time for my precious children.

amother

Fri, Jul 30 2010, 7:34 am

aidelmaidel wrote:

Again, I'm going to ask what exactly have you contributed here that is positive and constructive to the OP?

The OP asked for opinions on her idea, as a frum person, I don't know exactly how frum, whether to send to a Conservative run preschool for an 18 month old.

My opinions were

1. An 18 month old belongs at home, with mom. So does a 2 year old. They are still BABIES!
2. Conservative and frum do not go together, not at any age. We do not want anything to do with them whatsoever, and we were taught to stay far away. Definitely not to entrust a neshama of 18 months to them. If someone wants to do kiruv work as an adult, that is another story.
3. All the other posters, saying ask a Rav, well, she wanted other mother's opinions, or else she could go to a Rav. I would like to find one genuinely Orthodox Rav that would encourage this.
4. To the OP: Sorry if you feel I hijacked your thread. When you ask opinions, you get all kinds, the kind you like (so why did you ask in the first place) and the kind you don't like. You can just ignore it, so what is the problem? It is only an opinion, and I am entitled to mine. Whatever you decide, I wish you the best.

amother

Fri, Jul 30 2010, 7:43 am

Tehilla wrote:

amother, if your choices were an unhappy child or off the derech chas v'shalom, versus a happy child educated and nurtured in the way appropriate for him/her what would you do?
Personally, I don't mind if someone agrees or disagrees with my choice as their opinion is simply an opinion. I sought out a Rav and guidance from those near and dear to us. I DO have a problem when people are as exquisitely rude as you have been.

Why is my opinion considered rude, and yours not?
If you truly feel you are doing what is best for your child, why is there guilt bubbling beneath the surface?
Everyone can make their own choices when it comes to caring/schooling for their children.
We all need siyatta dishmaya for success in those areas.
If you feel your kids are truly happy and well adjusted, then you may be doing a great job.
Everything is possible. Homeschooling and home birthing are two things that are not yet totally accepted by most of today's society in my circles. Home birthing can be kept secret, but home schooling deprives the child of a broader social network. Every single home is a home school, for the other 17 hours of the day. Some parents make more use of the opportunity than others. Again, if you are doing what is best for you and your family, then I wish you great success. I am doing what is best for mine.

Tehilla

Fri, Jul 30 2010, 7:46 am

amother wrote:

Tehilla wrote:

There's no guilt! B"H! I said before I made such a decision my husband and I sought out the guidance of a Rav, meaning we are confident in our decision.

Having the opposite opinion of me is not rude, but consistently throughout this thread the way in which you have expressed yourself I consider to be rude. In fact, assuming I feel guilty is amusing to me. I really can't express enough the transformation in our family since we started homeschooling. Oh, and I home birth too. Wink

aidelmaidel

Fri, Jul 30 2010, 10:34 am

DrMom wrote:

aidelmaidel wrote:

I davka wouldn't want my kids to marry someone with such strident parents. Such a person would probably make my child and his/her spouse miserable.

Wait, who's being strident - me or the anonymous "amother"?

Tehilla

Fri, Jul 30 2010, 10:37 am

I read it as her referring to amother.

DrMom

Fri, Jul 30 2010, 11:04 am

aidelmaidel wrote:

DrMom wrote:

aidelmaidel wrote:

I davka wouldn't want my kids to marry someone with such strident parents. Such a person would probably make my child and his/her spouse miserable.

Wait, who's being strident - me or the anonymous "amother"?

amother, of course! Sorry for the misunderstanding.

aidelmaidel

Fri, Jul 30 2010, 11:33 am

To the OP and everyone else, forgive me for this very long post.

amother wrote:

Why is my opinion considered rude, and yours not?

Can I ask a question? Is English your first or primary language? Because I'm going to guess here that maybe you don't realize the tone your writing is giving off. Is your primary language Hebrew, Yiddish or Hungarian? Because that might explain why everyone is so upset with what you've written.

But in response to your question, can I point out what you wrote that is so judgmental?

Quote:

Terrible idea...
There should be a law banning all preschools and all babysitters.

You've bashed the OP in the first sentence. You're essentially saying that by putting her child in a playgroup she's "breaking the law", doing something "criminal". Never mind that there is no such law.

Quote:

There is no reason that children have to be "social" and in a program aside from the fact that Mommy wants to be free.

Judgmental. What you're saying here is that if a woman wants even a modicum of time for herself that is equivalent in your mind a woman giving up her children completely (I.e. free). (Also note that later you will contradict yourself and say that children need to go to school so they can be "social", but social doesn't apply before age 5 or whatever arbitrary number you pick?)

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If you have a child, be a Mommy! I am my kids MOM.

My favorite! Last time I checked all it took to be a Mommy or a MOM or a mother was that you had a child whether through birth or adoption. Your narrowly defined definition of motherhood is patently offensive to myself and probably the majority of the mothers on the board. You are implying that unless you spend every waking moment of your child's life with them then you are not a MOM.

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Having children is a responsibility. Whoever has a child should take care of the child.

You don't leave a lot of leeway here for people who don't fit your definition of what a family should be. What about a family in which the mother goes to work so the father can learn in kollel? or the father is unable to get a job/work? or chas v'shalom one of the parents is deceased?

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A child needs its mother for as long as possible. Nothing can replace the love and undivided attention of a devoted mother.

I agree that a child needs it's mother. But NOTHING can replace? And if you have more than one child, your attention and love is most definitely divided! But the rest of us poor shlubs are not devoted if we don't stay home every day?

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I never sent a child to a babysitter, nor did I bring one into my home, when they were under the age of 3.

Therefore, the rest of us are clearly inferior because maybe we can't be as perfect.

Quote:

And above age 3, you used babysitters? Shame on you - you should be arrested. Don't you know children are a responsibility? You should be by their side every single minute of every single day until their huppah. And even after that. Rolling Eyes

Very funny. I did not use babysitters. My husband, parents, parents in law, or my children were the babysitters.

So the rest of us who have a husband who is maybe at work, parents or in-laws who are either deceased, out of town, or just not interested, or children who are not old enough/responsible enough to babysit are failures?

Quote:

In the USA many people believe in and enjoy raising their own children, thank you.

But outside the USA people aren't interested in raising their own children? Or the people in the USA who might enjoy raising their own children but can't afford to not work? Are they clearly inferior in your mind? Do you really believe that people don't want to stay with their children?

Quote:

I worked with my children/babies right near me. I used cleaning help occasionally, but not babysitters.

For shame on the rest of us who might put the child in the other room to play or nap while we cleaned. Or maybe if our house isn't as spotless as yours we've clearly failed.

Quote:

I never left cleaning help alone with a child. I enjoyed every minute of caring for my children.

So the rest of us if we even have one moment of "I need a break" or "If this kid does that one more time I might freak out" or "why did I ever have children", then you are implying we are not real mothers? Because we're not tzaddikim?

Quote:

I was doing what my conscience told me to do, I have to answer to myself and to the One above who entrusted me with His precious children.

You're implying that the rest of us are conscienceless bums who don't care about our children if we leave them with a babysitter occasionally. And that we're G-dless heathens who clearly don't care about Hashem because we're not caring for our precious children in the same manner as you.

Quote:

I breastfed until around the age of 2, delivered naturally without epidural, and worked according to my children's schedule, (not working when they were around unless they were infants and/or sleeping).

So if I didn't breastfeed (for any number of reasons medical, shalom bayis, etc) or breastfeed until age 2, had an emergency c-section or needed an epidural after a 3 day induction, or went to work on the schedule of my job (so that we could eat), then again, I'm not a real mother in your eyes.

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My children are wonderful BH. I have no regrets.

Great! But for the rest of us who do have regrets at times (which is NORMAL), are we again in your eyes, not a real mother?

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Many mothers claim that they can do the minimum and their kids will turn out fine too.
I wish them all good luck. I hope for the sake of their kids that all will be well.

This is just nasty. "Do the minimum"? I guess anything other than what you're doing is "minimally acceptable" in your eyes? What you're saying here is "I'm pretty sure my way is the RIGHT WAY and you can say all you want that by doing the "minimum" your kids will be fine, but I sincerely doubt it. That's why I said "I hope for the sake of their kids."" Because hopefully Hashem will help your poor kids out even if you only do the minimum.

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Being the kind of mother that never left my kids,

"The Kind of Mother" as if the rest of us are a BAD "kind of mother" because we left our kids with a babysitter.

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I would not want them to marry a child that was cared for by someone else, whether Jewish or not. Jewish care is preferred, of course, but only in extenuating circumstances.

OH NO!! SHIDDUCH FEAR CARD!! G-d forbid someone might think you were less that the community ideal!!!

Quote:

I abhor seeing Jewish neshamas cared for by non Jews. It nauseates me.
Many mothers have no clue what their kids are being taught and fed.

This is insulting. You seem to think that if we leave our children with a non-Jewish babysitter that we have not thought long and hard about the details, possibilities and ramifications? Don't insult people's intelligence.

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IMHO, these children are orphans.

This is SO insulting. Because a child is left with a babysitter does not make them an orphan. Al pi Halacha an orphan is someone who has one or both parents who lo aleinu passed away. A child whose parent comes home everyday is not an orphan, by any stretch of the imagination.

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I would never dream of sending to a conservative school..

Great, you live in a place where there are Jewish schools. Some people don't. For example, you know that cholov yisroel milk you drink? The cows aren't milked in your town. In NY at least, they are milked at dairy farms far, far upstate. Did you know that there are 3 mashgichim that work every single day watching the cows so that you can have cholov yisroel milk? Did you know those mashgichim have families with children? Who need chinuch? But that those 3 families are the only frum yidden for miles around? That the closest yeshiva is across the border in Canada and is a 2-3 hour car ride each way?

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Why not to public school? Or Catholic school? As frum people, conservative=traif..

Check with your mother or grandmother. I promise before Bais Yaakov most girls in America (Chassidic girls too) went to public school. If your bubbie went to public school, don't let anyone know or you might not be able to get a shidduch for your child! And what about AHAVAS YISROEL for other yidden? While I don't necessarily consider Conservative Judaism as my cup of tea, I would say it's far from a comparison to Catholic schools.

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Ideally, the home is best for toddlers..

Oh but if you think you or your kid needs something different, then there is clearly something wrong with you.

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If not, then of course only a frum school, as brachos and learning Jewish themed things are so important. .

Have you ever looked at a non-frum preschool or are you just passing judgment? It's pretty much the same as a frum-preschool, except they might also learn ABCs. Basics are basics. But I'm sure in conservative preschool they're teaching them all about Yeshka and Muhammed. Wink

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By the time a child is 4 or 5 they are almost done. Their roots are planted..

So does that mean I can stop caring about my child's chinuch at age 6? I'm so glad I can stop then because based on your ideology of motherhood so far, I'm exhausted!

Quote:

If homeschooling would be the norm, I would be thrilled. Ideally I have nothing against it.
Unfortunately, Barbara, its isn't. Until it becomes the norm, it is viewed as being terrible socially..

But didn't you say earlier that kids need socialization? Oh right, here's the exact quote: "There is no reason that children have to be "social" and in a program aside from the fact that Mommy wants to be free."

Quote:

Why I care? Because I don't want to be the "pioneer" on my children's cheshbon.

But those of us who do "pioneer" in the hopes of giving our children what we believe might be better for *them*, we're doing it on our children's cheshbon and not our own?

Quote:

So there are problems with schools, and there are big flaws in homeschooling. We go to the park, museums, and bakery, and that is not an education.

I don't know but problem and big flaws sound pretty much the same to me. No one shita is perfect. But why do you need to denigrate homeschooling as not education?

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Children need to learn how to get along with others in this world. School taught me about getting along with all kinds of people.

So those of us that choose to home school we are creating social misfits?

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I would like to hear from you after you marry off your children, what they have to say about their homeschooling.

YOU'RE RUINING YOUR CHILDREN!!! THEY ARE GOING TO HATE YOU FOR HOMESCHOOLING THEM!! THEY ARE GOING TO RESENT YOUR CHOICES!!!!

Quote:

In my circles, I would never be able to marry off my children, as homeschooling is just considered too weird for anyone, and I prefer to let my children go through the school system, with all its faults, rather than jeopardize their futures.

OH NO!! SHIDDUCH FEAR CARD!! AGAIN!! Homeschooling = Weird. That's insulting. Homeschooling = my children will not have futures, not be able to get a job, not be able to find a spouse. Also insulting.

Quote:

Glad you are all happy now, wonder how happy you will be in the long run.

Again, you're implying that homeschooled (and children in some form of childcare) will be unhappy misfits who will resent you for doing this to them.

You don't leave a lot of room for Hashem to run the world. It sounds to me that you have a very clear idea of what should and shouldn't be and that if those guidelines aren't follow the world will fall apart. Once upon a time I asked an out of town Chassidic Rov a question and he responded to me, "I don't know about what goes on in Brooklyn, but over here in _____ we're not frummer than G-d."

aidelmaidel

Fri, Jul 30 2010, 11:43 am

One more thing to help diffuse the tension here Very Happy

jewels

Fri, Jul 30 2010, 12:49 pm

amother wrote:

I'm sorry I have nothing really to add to this conversation but this line just had me rolling...
Rolling Laughter

gp2.0

Fri, Jul 30 2010, 2:00 pm

I wouldn't do it. It doesn't seem like good chinuch to me, to be honest. And 18 months is still very young...there are so many activities you can do with him.

If you needed him to go because you needed your space or needed to work that's a different issue. But just boredom? What can this playgroup provide that you can't?

You say your son is independent, and I believe you. But HOW independent is the most independent kid at 18 months? Not very. Are you open to letting him stay home if you try the playgroup and he cries and becomes super clingy? Just a thought.

Another thought, this whole idea of playgroup for kids under three, I'd venture to say it's only around since the rise of feminism. What did the bored babies do before then? Nebech.

octopus

Fri, Jul 30 2010, 2:05 pm

gp2.0 wrote:

nylon

Fri, Jul 30 2010, 3:15 pm

amother wrote:

2. Conservative and frum do not go together, not at any age. We do not want anything to do with them whatsoever, and we were taught to stay far away. Definitely not to entrust a neshama of 18 months to them. If someone wants to do kiruv work as an adult, that is another story.

Attitudes like this are why my non-Orthodox relatives think their frum neighbors are rude and nasty. They complain, "they won't say hello in the street; they make their children run into the house when my children say hello." This is how you want the non-Orthodox to see frum yidden? That we think they're pure treif, and should only be talked to to make them like us? Let me tell you, that's not going to make kiruv so fruitful. They don't want anything to do with people who look down on them and they're not too wrong.

In any case, at 2 or 3, the differences between frum and not-frum are small in practice (TV is the big thing that comes to mind--and many MO children know who Dora is, anyway) and what do you think they're learning at school? It's not halacha. They do Shabbat on Friday and do Jewish crafts. They're not even learning alef-bet yet. Until 4 at least, preschool is fun and group socialization for the most part, especially for the part timers. I wonder what some of you think a Conservative preschool is teaching such small children? You think they're having shacharit with the girls leading? The JCC would be a little different, they're more cultural and less religious so won't do things like teach brachot--but the Conservative hamotzi is the same as the Orthodox one. The issue is solely a philosophical one of supporting a Conservative institution. As a practical matter, how it will affect the child at such an age--none.

My daughter spends 9 hours a week in preschool. 3 hours, 3 mornings a week. She's an only child and preschool gives her a chance to learn about being in a group. This is giving her up? Nonsense. I think amother is a troll, anyway.

R123

Fri, Jul 30 2010, 5:32 pm

amother wrote:

Terrible idea.
18 month olds belong with their mothers. So do 3 year olds, if possible.
There should be a law banning all preschools and all babysitters.
Mothers who have children should be with their kids as much as possible.
I know of plenty of children that stay home with Mommy till they are ready for 1st grade!
There is no reason that children have to be "social" and in a program aside from the fact that Mommy wants to be free. If you have a child, be a Mommy! I am my kids MOM.
amother because I am not interested in all the bashing, so no comments please.

I'm not going to bash you but I will tell you that what you posted might be 'an ideal' that you think all women should follow. However, not every woman is in your situation. I can tell you that I'm from a very large family and if my mother didn't work, we wouldn't have had food to eat or clothes to wear. So, your opinion leaves few options...should she have let us be hungry so that she could stay home with us or was it irresponsible for her to have a large family that needed to be supported? If you go with the latter, which ones of us shouldn't she have had? We all B"H survived having a non-Jewish nanny and are now in the stage of raising our own frum families B"H.

I think it would have been wiser for you to asnwer the OP's question with the idea that maybe the conservative school is not the best place for her child and further, in your opinion, children at 18 months old should be home with their mommies if possible. The way you state this and continue to state things in this thread shows you to think everyone has your sitatuation and is choosing to send their kids to school which in your opinion is not right. But, not everyone has the same sitatuon as you. There are so many valid reasons for a woman to have to work.

As to your opinion of not wanting your child to date someone who has had a non-Jewish babysitter/nanny ...are you serious? Why would something like that even enter into your mind when your kids are in shidduchim? Would that mean you would exclude any geyorim from your children's future potential spouses?

I think you had a valid point but because of the way you posted it, it just came off as rude. Remember that each person has their own situation and what is right for you is not right for everyone else.

To answer the OP's question.......I would say that its obvious you have concerns about putting your child in the conservative school. If you have reservations, then you should listen to your gut and not put him there. You might explore other options such as a Mommy & Me class at gymboree, or a music class, or playdates or buying the 'next level of toys' so that he shouldn't be bored. You can also think of it in terms of: what is this school buying you? One year of your child not being bored. Is that worth whatever he might learn that goes against what you would teach him? Good luck with your decision.

Good Shabbos!