15 yr old wants to learn math/general secular subjects HELP!

amother

Thu, Aug 05 2010, 10:18 am

He was brought up w/ a weak secular education until 13. He's been in a yeshiva for 2 years with no secular subjects. He really just doesn't like it. He gets by with acceptable grades, but I don't believe the hanhalim believe he is putting himself into it. Which I think is true. He comes across more modern and not really into being chassidishe. Sad

He'd rather not go back to a regular yeshiva. He wants more of a general yeshiva high school education. In our circles it's not really accepted.

I think because he can't stand yeshiva it's effecting his yeris shamayim(just my opinion). I think if he was in a place he wanted to be it may help(this is a different issue I think)?? Don't know.

Can't decide if it's better to keep him in the system he "doesn't like". (His magid shiur thinks it's just the age and a stage." He's not a bad kid, just not really into it. Or if I should put him in a yeshiva "high school". I know his magid shiur would be very against that, but that doesn't matter to DS.

I have to think of his future too. Should he go through the system not really into it and come out of it running??

I see so many unemployed/underemployed, it concerns me regarding my son. I want to give him the tools to succeed in life. If he's not "into" his current situation, I think I have to consider the high scool. At least then he could go on to schooling/ a trade.

It's such a difficult decision, I'm so unclear on the right way to direct him. B'H we have a very good open communication, both parents and son.

Anybody with a more charedi background who's gone through this? I need some clarity pleae!

Tamiri

Thu, Aug 05 2010, 10:25 am

I am not Chareidi but have seen enough off the derech boys to know that sometimes, you have to choose the lesser of all evils.
Let's say he wants a secular education and is willing to apply himself. You ease up on him, don't "force" him to be Chareidi and he goes his merry way. He sees how you support him, does his best to succeed in life, and is left with a good feeling about both himself and his relationship with you and also with Hashem. He may decide later that your way is his way, and come back.
Then let's say you force him to be what you want him to be. He is miserable. Begging to be let out. He desires a secular education and you are nixing that idea. He decided to rebel. He stops learning all together, cuts of his pe'ot, removes his kippa and never wears tzitzit. He is going to teach you who is in charge of his life, and he's left with nothing: no education to speak of, no religion, no relationship with his parents and Hashem.
You are in a very hard position, in my opinion. You enjoy your lifestyle, while he may not. It may be time to step back and allow him to take a certain amount of charge of his life. You can discuss it with him. Tell him what your hopes for him are, and make it clear that you know he is not you.
I wish you clarity and calm in dealing with this, and that your son isn't ruined by a bad decision, either way.

ValleyMom

Thu, Aug 05 2010, 10:26 am

I am really not sure why you are feeling anxious , please clarify...

You are UPSET because your son is respectfully requesting he attend school?

Isn't that a standard requirement for living in a civilized society?

I grew up Lubavitch and went on to college and graduate school.

I live a perfectly ordinary life: husband, 3 kids, a house, a van, a job etc.

What is it that upsets you about your son wanting to study math and science???

PM me if you are uncomfortable.

BrachaC

Thu, Aug 05 2010, 10:32 am

I think that as parents a large part of our job is to help our kids learn how to be productive. If this child feels that he will be more productive in an environment that encourages secular studies then I would feel compelled to help him. The teens that I see that have no ambition, no drive to do anything seem so much scarier. Help him harness this drive to learn SOMETHING before he breaks and has no desire to do ANYTHING.

That said- I do appreciate that this is definitely hard for you and your family. We live in a society (frum, chassidish, ultra yeshivish) that does not value individuality or even creativity, so it is very hard to have a kid that wants to break the mold. Have courage and the strength to do what is right for this child!

JRKmommy

Thu, Aug 05 2010, 10:38 am

Try to see all of the positive things in your situation.

1. Your ds actually WANTS to learn subjects like math. Many parents would only dream of having a child like that.

2. He didn't rebel, but made a reasonable proposal to you.

3. You have great parent-son communication.

These are all things to celebrate, IMHO.

I can't tell you what the ultimate decision should be, but I think that he sounds like a good boy who is being mature, and he deserves to have his request seriously considered.

I'd also say that the bond that he has with you will have far more of an impact on his life direction than what he learns during the next few years in school.

queen esther

Thu, Aug 05 2010, 10:44 am

firstly- hatzlacha with whaatever you do and your son should bring you much nachas!! I think you should try to focus on what would be best for him in the long run. If he's not happy, that's not a conducive place for leraning or becoming a yarei shamayim. there are plenty of frum, upstanding, yeshivish people who had secular classes in yeshiva high school! the yeshiva high schools in my area (OOT) arre mainly learning kodesh stuff and then a few hrs of secular. It's mainly Torah learning! he could still learn, be a rebbe if he wanted and also have opportunities for other professions.

Lady Godiva

Thu, Aug 05 2010, 10:47 am

Tamiri wrote:

I am not Chareidi but have seen enough off the derech boys to know that sometimes, you have to choose the lesser of all evils.

I completely agree with Tamiri.
You don't gamble with teenagers' futures. If he wants to go to school and learn secular subjects, you are giving him an opportunity to be a MENTCH. I'm not saying that one who does not study secular subjects is automatically not a mentch, but if he is forced to only learn limude kodesh, and he resents that, he might rebel in WORSE ways than learning math, English, science and history.
Think of his future, if he won't "sit and learn" all day, let him at least have an opportunity to be educated and to be able to go to college and have a rewarding career.

Tamiri

Thu, Aug 05 2010, 10:53 am

FTR, I have 5 boys, of whom 2 are already grown and if I've learned anything, I've learned: you can't force them. They are their own person. I am actually impressed with OP's son that he's showing an interest in ANYTHING. My #1 totally sailed through HS and didn't care about grades, or achievements. We stepped back and told him it's his life and stopped taking responsibility for getting his school work done. Magically, he's turned into an A-student in University. Because his success in life is all his - he can't use it to punish or reward us, and we let him know that a long time ago.
I suggest OP takes that attitude as well. She can let her son know that while his future is his own, his showing initiative to advance himself in a positive direction, albeit one that differs from her own, shows maturity, something that any mother should be proud of.

GetReal

Thu, Aug 05 2010, 10:54 am

ValleyMom wrote:

Can someone please explain why the OP is so frightened of her son attending a private yeshiva that teaches math and science???

Heeeelp!

I don't get it????????????

ValleyMom, you wrote that you grew up Lubavitch. I don't know if OP is Lubavitch but most Lubavitch yeshivas (certainly for high school age) don't teach secular subjects. The boys spend their time learning Torah. The schools that teach secular subjects are seen as lesser.

That said, op, I have seen Lubavitch boys who thrived in alternate settings, and were miserable in the traditional setting. I would say, work with your sons strengths. Hatzlacha rabbah and may you have much nachas

shalhevet

Thu, Aug 05 2010, 11:07 am

OP, I really don't understand why you posted here - surely you know there are all kinds of frum women here, many of whom see secular studies as the ideal. What did you want to hear?

And those who are more modern, what was the point of your answers? Surely you can see from the question that it is not a desirable thing in OP's community for a boy of hs age to study secular subjects. Only Tamiri addressed the problem - not that I necessarily agree, but she addressed it as it applies to OP, not dismissing such a lifestyle.

OP - I wonder if your son has noticed the ambivalence you mention about getting a job and that has made him unsure?

But the answer is to go to your own rav/rebbe and consult with him, who will take your derech's hashkafic ideal into account as well as your son's individual case.

morah

Thu, Aug 05 2010, 11:23 am

OP- you mention that your son's mashgiach thinks this is "just a phase". However, you seem to know your son. Just because he's entrusted to a Yeshiva with a mashgiach, doesn't mean they know him better than you. Also, the mashgiach has a vested interest in keeping your son where he is. You, as his mother, have a vested interest in doing what's best for your child. Do you really want to risk that the mashgiach may be wrong? That this isn't just a phase? Do you want to risk your son's well-being and possible future religious commitment on the conjecture that he MIGHT be "just a phase"? Listen to your son, and listen to your gut. Your gut is telling you your son is already suffering spiritually in his environment; it also seems to be telling you that your son is a good kid, and has no ulterior motive here. Your son is telling you what he's unhappy with his school. He is also telling you he wants to learn math- not girls, know not drugs, but math. When my husband was his age, he was shooting spitballs through a straw at his math teacher; when my father was that age, he was smoking pot in the bleachers and skipping math class altogether. Be glad your son is asking to do something that so many parents have to beg their kids to do. If you disregard your son now, he will stop bothering to tell you when something is wrong and will seek fulfillment on his own- and we all know where THAT often ends up. It's hard to go against the mold, especially in an environment where "different" is viewed so suspiciously. But you have to deal with the here and now. Start working with your son on finding an appropriate school. May you see much nachas from your son, in both kodesh and chol!

Last edited by morah on Thu, Aug 05 2010, 11:25 am; edited 1 time in total

sped

Thu, Aug 05 2010, 11:23 am

shalhevet wrote:

Yes.

JRKmommy

Thu, Aug 05 2010, 11:27 am

Shalhavet - it is not dismissing a lifestyle to point out that a strong parent-child bond is crucial, regardless of hashkafah, and that showing a child that his mature, thoughtful requests re his chinuch will be given consideration (whatever the ultimate decision) can strengthen that bond.

I think that the OP is pretty clear on this, but I'd also add that the best interests of the son need to be the paramount consideration. To the extent that a rav/rebbe may know the child and be able to offer guidance, their advice can be valuable. However, "what will the community think?" is obviously not something that can interfere with making the decision that is right for YOUR son.