Letting Kids run around at shul

mom3boys

Tue, Jul 25 2006, 6:11 pm

I am curious, how do you ladies define a young child. What age is the appropriate age to start? If I am waiting till the time that they can really daven, well, that will be grade 2.

By the way, I am about to have a baby (G-d willing) When that happens I plan to send my 3 1/2 year old for at least two weeks, and, no, I can't get a baby sitter.

I am sure my DH will get help in shul from his friends, isn't that the point of tight nit community?

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My baby started babbling dadada bababa and someone came over to ask me to leave.

This is ridiculous!

Raisin

Tue, Jul 25 2006, 7:27 pm

how do you get a babysitter on shabbos? Aren't there problems of paying someone to work on shabbos? Confused

Personally, I hardly ever get to sit in Shul for more than about 2 seconds...but my reaction when I see children in Shul is nachas at seeing Jewish children. the community where I live is a little top-heavy agewise, so I think people really enjoy seeing young faces. (there is a childrens service so things never get out of control.)

I am not so sure Southern Bubby and those who agree with her would like to see perfectly quiet shuls with no children. That would be so sad. Just be happy that people are having children. I think Peru Urevu comes way ahead in the Torah before davenning. Please try and make your shul a welcome place for mothers and children. Maybe one of you could volunteer to run a childrens service once every few weeks? Donate some childrens books and games so kids have something to do? (Sarag do you have any stuff left or did you give it all away yet?) Failing all that, you could always go and daven in an old age home, where even if the residents have children, presumably they are all grown up, and are well past the age of running around and causing havoc.

I am just so fed up of hearing people complain about this, instead of trying to help. There are so many things you could do. For example, in the Nshei Chabad newsletter, an older woman whose grandchildren lived pou of town "adopted" her neighbours daughters and made sure they were davenning nicely in shul on shabbos morning. (I think this lady got more out of this relationship than her neighbour) I thought this was so beautiful.

I think I may have posted this story before in a similar thread, but I will repeat it here. We have a friend who is a ger. He was some sort of protestant minister, and in middle age decided to become Jewish. He says how the first time he entered a shul, he was amazed. In churches, the service is conduct in splendid silence, only the voice of the minster or choir to be heard. Yet here, in this shul, there was noise. People talking, children playing, (no doubt, grumpy old people shushing!) He thought, Judasim is a living religion. It is something alive.

This experience was a strong influence on him becoming Jewish.

Crayon210

Tue, Jul 25 2006, 7:43 pm

Rifky wrote:

I am not so sure Southern Bubby and those who agree with her would like to see perfectly quiet shuls with no children.

I would like to see perfectly quiet shuls. Confused

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Just be happy that people are having children.

I am happy that people are having children, but they don't belong in certain places.

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I think Peru Urevu comes way ahead in the Torah before davenning.

Pru u'revu doesn't mean that kids have to come into shul and disrupt others. One can procreate and leave their offspring at home.

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Please try and make your shul a welcome place for mothers and children.

But shuls are not the place for children who cannot go without talking or disrupting.

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Yet here, in this shul, there was noise. People talking, children playing, (no doubt, grumpy old people shushing!) He thought, Judasim is a living religion. It is something alive.

This experience was a strong influence on him becoming Jewish.

That's very strange, because a shul is not a place to talk or play, even if it makes Yiddishkeit look more appealing.

I'm not very impressed by that.

southernbubby

Tue, Jul 25 2006, 7:51 pm

Rivky, you took what I said out of context. I was talking about teaching your children how to behave during davening, not about excluding children. The Shulchan Aruch cautions against bringing crying children and those who wear soiled diapers to shul.
I was talking about rowdy conduct that parents have an obligation to control. Yes it would be nice if the older people gave the young parents a break but most of us go to shul to daven and took care of our children when we were raising them. Most of us are not thinking in terms of spending our Shabbos morning babysitting, unless it is for our grandchildren. Maybe once in a while to help out with a special situation, but not on a regular basis. Maybe you are a special person who will one day, when you have spent years keeping your own kids behaving in shul on Shabbos, want to do that for your neighbors.

Raisin

Tue, Jul 25 2006, 7:58 pm

Crayon210 wrote:

Rifky wrote:

I am not so sure Southern Bubby and those who agree with her would like to see perfectly quiet shuls with no children.

I would like to see perfectly quiet shuls. Confused

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Just be happy that people are having children.

I am happy that people are having children, but they don't belong in certain places.

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I think Peru Urevu comes way ahead in the Torah before davenning.

Pru u'revu doesn't mean that kids have to come into shul and disrupt others. One can procreate and leave their offspring at home.

Quote:

Please try and make your shul a welcome place for mothers and children.

But shuls are not the place for children who cannot go without talking or disrupting.

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That's very strange, because a shul is not a place to talk or play, even if it makes Yiddishkeit look more appealing.

I'm not very impressed by that.

Sigh. You weren't impressed. This guy was. Bh we are all different.

Well, I will call you to come and babysit.

Don't you just love it when people blithely say...leave your kids at home. Like you have a full time nanny.

Actually, I was certainly not suggesting that people should send their small children to run around shul and make noise. I was suggesting that instead of complaining and shushing and making poor overworked and under helped mothers feel guilty for existing, (or worse, causing children to exist) do something proactive that will help eliminate this problem.

I even suggested things you could do. Donate toys to the shul. Help with a childrens service. Help out with your friends children. (especially if yours are grown up) Make sure your shul is dealing with this problem in a positive way.

mumsy23

Tue, Jul 25 2006, 8:27 pm

Rifky wrote:

how do you get a babysitter on shabbos? Aren't there problems of paying someone to work on shabbos? Confused

I agree with you 100%. Very well said.

Before I was frum, I davened at a lubavitch shul on Yom kippur and there was a baby that was crying and some old ladies started shushing and complaining. The Rav stopped the davening and spoke to the congregation. He said something like "children in shul are nachas. These are the people who are going to one day I'H fill the shul. The crying is music to my ears!"

Even though I was only a teen and had no thoughts of children any time in the near future, the speech he made really touched me. It made me feel like everyone is welcome and that they really value every jewish neshama being there.

stem

Tue, Jul 25 2006, 8:47 pm

Defy, you've got the right attitude! Shul is for davening. period.

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Before I was frum, I davened at a lubavitch shul on Yom kippur and there was a baby that was crying and some old ladies started shushing and complaining. The Rav stopped the davening and spoke to the congregation. He said something like "children in shul are nachas. These are the people who are going to one day I'H fill the shul. The crying is music to my ears!"

Oh please. So maybe now everyone is shul feels warm and fuzzy being there with the crying baby, but what about kavana? Is he implying that you should go somewhere else if you want to daven with concentration? Or that a crying baby shouldn't impact your davening?

mumsy23

Tue, Jul 25 2006, 8:59 pm

stem wrote:

Defy, you've got the right attitude! Shul is for davening. period.

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Yes, maybe he is saying that everyone has a right to daven in shul. That it is a mitzvah to populate the world with jewish children and that shouldn't come at the expense of never setting into shul until you are well past your child bearing years.

Shuls are not just for davening, they are for all of klal yisroel to daven AND reconnect to their judaism once a week. And it is a great place to mechanech your children about the beauty of Judaism and ritual.

amother

Tue, Jul 25 2006, 9:22 pm

I agree with Rivky and Mumsy23. Here where I live there are many shuls to choose from, 1 of them I always knew from when I was kid, was that u cant make a sound, when u get a chumash... u have to tiptoe... I always hated that shul, the looks u got for making a sound... Im sure thats not what Hashem wants, dont be so worried about every little noise, if u r really davening with kavana, little babbling wont bother you. Its quite obvious that that shul is not growing in members.
On the other hand, I try to get to go to shul but my toddler wont walk where I want him to, my older kids r dying to go to shul and I would luv for them to be able to go to shul just for a little bit. (My husband cant take them to his shul for whatever reason). Dont get me wrong Im not advocating noisy kids running around, but I am saying dont give looks and stares to mothers with children, be tolerant of others and you set a good example and say tehilim bw aliyos!! Smile

southernbubby

Tue, Jul 25 2006, 9:33 pm

Tootsiepies, we are not talking about the normal sounds that children make. We are talking about giving the PROPER CHINUCH to your children about how to behave in shul. If I want to be a nice person and help you with the kids, that is great but it is your OBLIGATION to MECHANACH them. It doesn't bother me if your baby cries unless it is during the megillah reading and I have to hear it over. I don't care if your toddler asks for her juice or your preschooler wants his toy. That is normal for that age. If they become cranky or soil their diapers, please escort them from the room. The shulchan aruch tells you to do that. If your 8yr old decides to mucher another 8yr old, whose obligation is it to make them stop fighting? YOURS!
If I hated kids then why would 4 Gan Israel campers going home to Seattle be parked in my house since 7 this morning? They are leaving tomorrow due to some delayed flights.

mom3boys

Tue, Jul 25 2006, 9:43 pm

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If you can't get a babysitter, why not have another mother come over to keep you company while the men are in shul. That way, your kids will play together and you'll have an extra pair of hands available.

On average my friends all have 3 kids. Lets do the math. My G-d willing 4 plus my friends 3, now we have 7 between the ages of 0-6. So much for a much needed nap or rest. You all must know the amount of noise, trouble and mess 7 kids can make.

Mom's who send their little ones to shul probably really need the break from them. I do agree that there is no room in shul for wild behavior, as I mentioned before I have only started sending my oldest 2. But I guess all shuls are different, and we all speaking from our own experiences.