sub forum for imamothers losing their emunah

amother

Sun, Dec 12 2010, 11:21 pm

OPINIONATED wrote:

amother wrote:

sequoia wrote:

But the medrash isn't *meant* to be taken literally.

Tell that to the Bais Yaakov I went to. But again, it depends on the age of the child, a 4 year old is going to learn this literally and rightfully so (along with all the other black and white characterizations), an older child should be taught the lesson behind the story and why chazal brought down this particular parable to teach it. Some schools cover this level very rarely and I think it's a great disservice to many of their students.

Rav Brevda has a speech about the story of Purim. He argues that the schools are teaching this wrong. Children are taught that the Jews were afraid of Haman, because Haman wanted to kill the Jews. In truth, Hashem made Haman hate us because the Jewish people at the time went to the party of Achashveirosh, when they were not supposed to.

The schools teach about the party, but they don't teach that Hashem was running the show.

OK, my Bais Yaakov got this part right. What bothered me to no end was needing a malach to sleep with Achashveirosh becuase of course Esther would never have done that. But that is not an emuna issue, more of an emunas chachamim issue. Can that be part of this forum?

amother

Sun, Dec 12 2010, 11:21 pm

I think that if it becomes a closed group,if I needed that chizuk,I will never apply for that group.
The same way the first person who wants to open that group because she doesnt dare tell it to her friends.The same thing,I dont know how much anonymous we are on Imamother and therefore if someone finds out who I am,she will know what I want to hide.
Its healthier anyways to keep it open,it gives the opportunity to anyone to strengthen our Bitochon.I have a major issue with the holocaust,and terrified it should happen again Chas vesholom.We all have something we need to strengthen,and it would be very good to leave it open.Rather than to make it a closed group.Than so what ?all the people not in it they can be smug about themselves that their Bitochon is perfect?
Nobody,s Bitochon is perfect,thats why we keep on learning.
Bitochon is the key to Yiddishkeit and is necessary for everyone to hold it,internalise it.

amother

Sun, Dec 12 2010, 11:51 pm

Thank you Hinda Rochel.

I know without a doubt that Hashem is running the show. I've been through very painful episodes however and while I know he's there, it's behind a smokescreen currently. I feel I've got very little connection and want so badly to regain it.

I find that I've responded very well to real life women sharing their experiences, and a vort they may have heard, much better than a sefer meant to do the same job.

I would very much like to see such a forum come about.

amother

Sun, Dec 12 2010, 11:54 pm

HindaRochel wrote:

I asked for the subforum. I'll let you know.

op here

thank you so much.

is there someone with alot of posts and a good relationship with the mods and Yael who would offer to moderate it if it comes into something.

(hindarochel maybe?)

amother

Sun, Dec 12 2010, 11:57 pm

OPINIONATED wrote:

amother wrote:

OPINIONATED wrote:

The schools teach about the party, but they don't teach that Hashem was running the show.

I hope so, because that's the easiest one to deal with. We were taught that Esther was permitted to sleep with Achashveirosh because otherwise she would be killed. She had a son with Achasveirosh, Koresh, who allowed the Jewish people to build the Beis Hamikdash. How could she have a son if the malach came between them? Another virgin birth story?

Tell that to the mefarshim that explain that a malach slept with Achashveirosh instead of Esther. Maybe once she agreed to go to Achashveirosh she gave up the right to the malach, you're asking me to explain this? This same malach shows up when Sara is taken by Paroh and Avimelech IIRC.

amother

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 12:00 am

I'm the amother above, my questions are more regarding outlandish mefarshim and how we can not question anything "the Rabbis" tell us, (so basically what Judaism has evolved into) not with Hashem so I'm not sure I'd belong.

mammele26

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 12:12 am

OPINIONATED wrote:

amother wrote:

OPINIONATED wrote:

The schools teach about the party, but they don't teach that Hashem was running the show.

There's something wrong with what you were taught, then. This aveira is one of those that the torah requires "yeyhareig v'al ya'avor".

amother

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 12:12 am

marina wrote:

please, that's not the only question I have Smile

We were discussing how we answer children. And I was sharing a frustrating episode.

If we ever get this forum, we can discuss greater issues than a medrash.

what will you do if your kids discover your blog?

and do you discuss this with your DH? This is a general question (not just for Marina), I can't imagine how my DH would react if I ever discussed this with him.

amother

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 2:03 am

I'm in this boat but don't think I'd ever join such a forum. I can't see it being helpful at all. It would just make things much worse. Does anyone think their emunah will get strengthened from such a forum? You think that someone who is also doubting will be able to answer your questions?

grin

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 2:17 am

excuse me for butting in to this discussion, but I'm very confused by the need for a subforum. True I never went to BY (BH) but I have read numerous accounts of gedolim that show that struggling with emuna is human and can be healthy - if you take as axiomatic and baseline first that H' created the world and us in it for the purpose of keeping Torah and mitzvos.

After that, struggling is actually part and parcel of us believing in addition that H' wants us to try to use the siechel that He gave us to try to understand better what this world, with its suffering and apparent injustices is all about.

Even the tanaim themselves reacted with "ze Torah and ze schara?" at the 10 Martyrs - H' didn't answer but didn't censor the Q either. It seems to me that those that don't struggle at all are the ones with the problem with their yiddishkeit, not developing it to an adult level.

amother

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 2:27 am

amother wrote:

and do you discuss this with your DH? This is a general question (not just for Marina), I can't imagine how my DH would react if I ever discussed this with him.

I do discuss it with DH. I started discussing it with him with my doubts were small so that made it easier. My DH is also not your typical DH so I'm very lucky in that way. I don't think he believes I will ever completely lose my faith. I hope he's right.

amother

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 2:30 am

amother wrote:

Was going to say the same thing. Everyone will be throwing their doubts and questions, and then what? Who will answer your questions? Or are you not looking for answers? Then how will it help you? Just by knowing that there are others who feel the same?

hadasa

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 2:37 am

If the purpose of the forum will be to get answers and Chizuk, then it can be useful for everyone, because, as mentioned before, everyone has questions at times.
But if the point is only to have one's doubts and questions validated and strengthened by those who feel the same way, then the existence of such a forum will be detrimental to all concerned. I would be very wary of this. There are too many blogs and websites around dedicated to questioning and even ridiculing Torah and Judaism. We sure don't need another one right here.
There is a very fine line to tread here, between asking for the sake of reconciling one's sechel with one's Neshama, and asking for the sake of alienating them even further. I'm not sure it's a line that imamother is capable of treading.

grin

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 2:37 am

amother wrote:

grin wrote:

if you take as axiomatic and baseline first that H' created the world and us in it for the purpose of keeping Torah and mitzvos.

But some people struggle with this too.

yes, you're right - and that's OK too

na'ase v'nishma simply means that we don't condition our keeping Torah and mitzvos on our understanding - we don't understand, we may be angry at H', but we'll put that aside for the moment, do the mitzva, and accept that there are things that we don't understand - for now, or forever, because of our limited seichel - but we continue to struggle and work on trying to understand, because it bothers us, because we believe deep inside that H' is full of rachmanis and what we see doesn't make sense at all.

what's assur is to say that if we can't understand then it means there's no G-d and throw in the towel, to stop struggling with this paradox that occupied our greatest minds for all eternal.

amother

Mon, Dec 13 2010, 2:38 am

I would be interested in such a forum, as long as it is a place for intellectual discussion with a strong desire of all participants to help one another and guide each other through the fog. The problem for me is that the more I learn, and the more I see of 'the frum world', the less I believe in all the pratim. I think I would currently describe myself as an orthoprax, meaning that I see great value in the basic practices of orthodox Judaism, but I just don't buy into what a lot of the mefarshim bring down.