I just want them to be happy...

Fox

Thu, Dec 23 2010, 7:30 am

farm wrote:

So if your kid is a genius and aspires to be a UPS delivery guy, that's totally okay with you?

Quite possibly, yes!

As Jews, we do not equate (or at least we not supposed to equate!) our potential for avodas Hashem with our socio-economic status. Throughout Jewish history, there have been many, many examples of tremendous talmidei chachamim who earned their parnosseh in relatively low-status ways.

Unlike much of the secular world, we try to see the whole picture. Does my son the genius love his job as a delivery guy for UPS because it allows him to earn a living but get off work at 3 p.m., allowing him to learn an afternoon seder? Does he enjoy it because it is a relatively low-stress position that doesn't require him to bring work home or work excessive hours, thus allowing him to prepare a Daf Yomi shiur or spend time with his kids? Does he like working for UPS because he is able to arrange his schedule to daven with a minyan three times a day?

Or maybe my son the genius finds that such a job just fits his personality better than a higher-status, higher-stress job. There are plenty of smart "beta males" who simply don't want a lifestyle that requires them to give up their interests, hobbies, and family time in order to pursue what outsiders would consider "success." These guys are some of the most interesting people I've known, and they are often far better husbands and fathers than their more driven counterparts.

But I agree that "I just want them to be happy" is a little misleading. What we really should say is, "I want my children to be happy, but my job is to do my best to make sure Hashem is happy with them!"

AlwaysGrateful

Thu, Dec 23 2010, 7:53 am

Thank you, Fox, for always saying what I was going to say, just before I had a chance to say it.

There's nothing wrong with someone being a UPS delivery man. There's something wrong with someone being a doctor (would that be a "better" track, in your opinion?) who is petty and egotistical, spends no time with his family, and backstabs his friends.

Disclaimer: I have no issue with doctors. I just have an issue with this standard of success. If I have raised my child well, he will have good middos and will strive to serve Hashem in the best way possible. His future job has very little to do with that.

auntie_em

Thu, Dec 23 2010, 8:00 am

I agree with Fox and sequoia.

As an example, I have a brother who is literally a genius. He has an amazing science and math brain. He was in school for a long time, getting degrees and working on what always seemed to be very important research and things.

He was so unhappy though. It didn't come across as sad, or what my understanding of depression was at that time. He was just angry and negative most of the time. He became a really hard person to be around.

He quit and took a job doing sales. In a matter of a few weeks, he was just happier. Now he works for himself, doing sales. He is b'h finally getting married to a wonderful women who has 3 lovely girls and I love to spend time with him. He still reads all of his 'science' stuff, and discusses it for hours with his friends. But he is happier in sales. Smile

Fox

Thu, Dec 23 2010, 9:58 am

farm wrote:

Okay Fox, so what if he's top in his shiur but doesn't want to move up to the higher one because he would prefer not to exert any effort?

You can definitely encourage him, but like the old adage goes, "You lead a horse to water . . . "

The important thing to communicate -- though I know it isn't easy! -- is that you value him regardless of whether you think he's living up to his potential academically.

I guess I would look at his overall character and behavior. Is he the type of person, like Aunti_Em's brother, who has the capability to do higher level academic work, but who prefers relationship-building -- hanging out with his buds in the regular shiur? Does he exhibit the same lack of willingness to work hard in all areas of his life, or just shiur? Are there areas of Limudei Kodesh that get him turned on and motivated?

I'll give you two examples from my own teenagers, and I'm sure other posters will have many more:

I have a DD who has absolutely no interest in academics unless there is a clear, direct relationship to something she needs to do. She's shlepping through online HS, but it's a slog for her. However, she is a very gifted entrepreneur, and can practically turn any idea into money. I'm genuinely amazed and humbled -- and sometimes envious! She certainly has the capability to do well in an academic environment, but she has no interest. So I just tell all the school administrators in the community to be nice to her -- they'll be coming to her for contributions pretty soon.

I have a DS who is an average but uninspired student of Gemara. Oh, he does okay in his yeshiva, but most of the time his heart really isn't in it. However, he got incredibly interested in learning musar sefarim, and he does a lot of learning on his own in this area, speaks about it with others, etc.

Now, obviously there are certain minimal requirements that DH and I have set up. DD must finish high school and DS must learn Gemara. However, we recognize that their personalities and interests lead them toward certain interests, professions, etc., and those are gifts that Hashem gave them for a purpose.

There are definitely people out there who have difficulty identifying goals or sticking with activities, but I don't think there are as many as one might think. Many people who are "successful" by any objective standard of success were not high-performing students. They simply weren't interested enough. But when they find something they enjoy, they suddenly come to life.

Also, you don't say how old your son is, but I'm assuming teenage-ish. Remember that most yeshivas and bochrim operate in a very one-zman-at-a-time mode. He may like the rebbe this year or like some of his classmates . . . but next year could be a completely different situation. If he's in mesivta and moving up to bais medrash, he might be more interested in joining the higher-level shiur.

Hope all this was helpful. If not, bear in mind that many UPS drivers are doing considerably better than college professors in the current economic climate.

ora_43

Thu, Dec 23 2010, 10:33 am

Fox

. Great posts.

I wouldn't let a kid get away with being lazy in every field of life, but I definitely wouldn't force them into advanced classes if they don't want to be there. I don't think it would help anything in the long term - they'll only achieve academic success if that's what they want, if that's not what they want, the only thing pushing them into it will accomplish is creating tension.

Maybe if it was really clear that the advanced class is their level, I'd insist that they try it for one week, but after that it's their call. Especially for teens.

I think that if a person is really built for academic success, they'll be less happy in a slow class, and will eventually decide for themselves that they want to be in the more advanced - and more interesting - course. If they're happy hanging out in the regular class forever, maybe their true skills lie outside the realm of advanced learning. Maybe they have social or whatever else skills that are stronger even than their academic skills.

I don't think it's so easy to really assess someone's academic skills. High IQ isn't the same as being suited for academics.

For example, I know someone who is very good at sports. Good enough to be beating 8-year-olds in statewide tournaments as a six-year-old. Good enough that in high school, she qualified for a training camp for the Junior Olympics, in an event she'd just started a year earlier.

But. Every time she gets very good in one event, she switches to another. Because ultimately, while she loves sports (and definitely has the body and coordination for it), she hates pressure and competition.

So is she a potential Olympic athlete who isn't pushing herself? IMO no - a potential Olympic athlete would find competition exciting, not upsetting.

Ditto academics. A teen with a genius-level IQ who can easily learn college material who doesn't like pressure and has many non-academic interests she wants time to pursue (and thus wants to be in less advanced courses than what she could handle) is not a potential doctor/physicist/whatever who's being lazy. A potential doctor/physicist would like their subject enough to not mind sacrificing many other parts of their life for it.

ora_43

Thu, Dec 23 2010, 10:40 am

Also - I don't think Hashem expects us to make full use of every single strength. Let's say someone is good at art, good with sciences, and good with kids. Is she supposed to be a professional artist - scientist - teacher (while still having friends and a family)? Not possible. Even if she really were capable of pursuing any one of those things (unlike in my previous examples), she'll have to choose, and some skills will not be fully used.

All that said I don't want my kids to just be happy - I want them to be good people.

Being happy can help toward that goal though. A person who allows themselves to pursue their interests and enjoy life will probably find it easier to be sympathetic and caring than will a person who is unhappily pushing themselves to "fulfill potential" because they feel like they're obligated to do so.

HindaRochel

Thu, Dec 23 2010, 11:27 am

farm wrote:

So if your kid is a genius and aspires to be a UPS delivery guy, that's totally okay with you?

Yes...it is more important to me how they act than what they achieve in terms of financial or professional success. A UPS delivery guy who has a lot of time for his wife and kids, and helps those in his neighborhood, and checks up on the older people in his area, and two days a week tutors special ed kids so they can have a bar/bat mitzvah...well he may not be using his potential as I think he should, but he is still using his brains and using his life to do good.

Seraph

Thu, Dec 23 2010, 1:24 pm

farm wrote:

So if your kid is a genius and aspires to be a UPS delivery guy, that's totally okay with you?

Yup.
My parents pushed me academically. Seriously. To the extent that I was skipped three grades, learned college Chem 1 and Chem 2, College Calc 1 and Calc 2 plus a few other college classes in the local college... all at the age of 15.
They were pushing me to go to college, but after 1 year of it, I saw no point. They were seriously discouraging me from getting married before I had a degree, but quite frankly, I was uninterested. I'm a stay at home mom now who homeschools her two kids, does a lot of work in the kitchen, learns a lot about saving money, invents new ways to save money, runs a website and writes a column on frugality. No degree. 1 year of college behind me.
My parents think it was a waste of a brain to not get a college degree. I beg to differ. I felt it was pointless and didn't help me towards my goals in life. I'm still glad now that I didnt go to college, as there are other ways to learn besides for just in the academic world. The internet is full of information, as are books...

My uncle has an IQ of 170. Pure genius. He was going for his PhD in animal psychology. He finished all the course work, all the assignments, etc. Right before he was about to get his PhD, he got into a fight with his advisor and dropped out of the PhD program. 7 years into it, and all the work completed. He now works as a supervisor in a health food co-op. But it makes him happy. So what on earth is wrong with that?

I want my kids to be emotionally healthy adults. That's what I mean by "happy". I'd like them to not be lazy, but if they're lazy and responsible, thats fine with me. I want them to be good people, but thats part of being emotionally healthy (at least in my opinion). I want them to be yarei shamayim. And a true yarei shamayim is a good person.
I truly believe in chanoch lanaar al pi darko, to let a child chose what they want to do in their life, because parents don't always know what is best for their kids... so as long as my kids are happy (read: emotionally healthy), I don't care what direction they end up taking in their life.

farm

Tue, Dec 28 2010, 6:37 pm

Quote:

farm wrote:
Okay Fox, so what if he's top in his shiur but doesn't want to move up to the higher one because he would prefer not to exert any effort?

Isn't it ultimately his decision?

not if you enroll him in a school without a higher shiur

I agree that there's a fine line between little league horror story parents and pushy parents but I think that to be blessed with an athletic child and not enroll him in a sport or 2 or 3 is criminal. We are not on this world to be happy. We are here to make Hashem happy. If he gave you a talented child, part of your tafkid is to encourage your child to develop the talent even if it's easier for them (and you?) to be lazy and/or live for the moment.

PinkFridge

Wed, Dec 29 2010, 6:36 am

farm wrote:

Quote:

farm wrote:
Okay Fox, so what if he's top in his shiur but doesn't want to move up to the higher one because he would prefer not to exert any effort?

Isn't it ultimately his decision?

Sports is an interesting animal. My kids for years have gone to a summer baseball league organized by one of the local shuls for all Jewish kids in the community. It's once a week and it's pure fun. I've noticed the coaches making some interesting calls... holding a ball and turning around sllllooowlly before deciding where to throw it if a kid or team needs a boost, etc.

Then one day my son lost his glove at a different field. That field had regular little league going on when I went back to hunt for it and I watched for a few minutes. I won't talk about the mixed (I don't mean coed, I mean all sorts of people) crowd, etc. The kids were in the field and focused, I don't think anyone would be damaged by the lack of tznius. (At the frum little league you have people across the spectrum, unaffiliated relatives, same difference.) But the difference is the atmosphere. You have people out for blood. You have people who are hoping their kids might make it one day. My son doesn't need that.

So by all means, choose sports, but choose wisely.