"Because I said so" parenting- (gifted kids)

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Seraph

Sun, Dec 26 2010, 2:18 pm

Quote:

"if I tell her thats just for adults, she has no problem understanding that. she knows for instance that when she gets older she can go on the elliptical, and when she gets older she can use the computer, and she can mop the house, and use knives. some things are just NOT for kids "

Ok, this is where there's a difference in parenting.
I do not tell my kids "This is only for adults." I tell my kids "This is only for when you're capable of using it so it won't be dangerous." I don't believe in arbitrary rules, like "Because I said so." Especially because my kid is a kid who questions "Why, why, why?" I only make rules that I believe to be fair.
I let my son use a sharp knife. Yes, I do. With supervision. Because he is capable of using it carefully.
I let my son mop the floor.
I would let him use the eliptical if I had one and if he was able to sit on it safely.
I let my son use the computer.

So just telling him "Mommy is allowed to be awake and you need to be asleep because Mommy is an adult and you're a kid" doesn't float in my parenting philosophy. I don't "not let my kid" do something because he "isn't an adult". Anything that an adult can do, a kid can do unless he is incapable of doing it, or it would be dangerous for him, etc.
Things like tefillin a kid potentially can, but he doesn't because Hashem said that its for 13 and up, and Hashem made the world and Hashem knows the world best and is infallible, so he's the only one who gets to make artibrary rules.
Saying "Adults are allowed to stay up at night but kids aren't" is an arbitrary rule and I don't believe in them. If the kid is too tired, then its not an arbitrary rule, but if the kid isn't tired, it is arbitrary "because I said so" parenting which I strongly do not believe in doing...

I think "Because I said so" parenting is a very dangerous type of parenting. People are fallible. If you teach your kid that they must do everything you say just because you're the parent and you say so, you're getting yourself into very dangerous territory once your kid starts questioning the whys and the hows. Yea, for a certain point you can force your kid to do so "because you said so", but there will come a time that you won't be able to force your kid anymore and then it'll be up to them to decide if they want to follow what you said to do. If the answer they got was "because I said so", but they disagree, what incentive do they have to follow? Halachically viahavta lireacha kamocha applies to your kids as well- you should treat your kids as you want to be treated, and that includes respecting them and valuing their opinions and thoughts, so just ordering them "do this because I said so" without bothering to explain to them "Why" isn't very respectful and isn't conducive to getting them to actually want to do something.

ETA: If you explain a rule to a kid and he disagrees, I think compromises sometimes are in order. I do think kids should be allowed to make some decisions in their life, and yes, parents might realize after hearing their kids take that the original rule maybe wasn't ideal, and there's a better way around it. Yes, parents do have the final say in the matter, but that doesn't mean they don't have to hear what the kids think about a rule and consider adjusting a rule based on that.

Some people say that your kids need to learn to accept things "because you said so" because thats how we teach them to be ovdei hashem. I strongly disagree. Most people I know who grew up with "because I said so" parents ended up rejecting their parents derech and have lots of issues with authority and lots of frumkeit struggles.

How do you teach your kid to follow Hashem? You explain to your kids that Hashem created us and created the world and gave us the torah as the special way to connect to him, and because following the torah is what is best for our neshama. Hashem is infallible, so by following what he said, we're following the truth and we'll be benefited.

Parents on the other hand make mistakes. We're not perfect. And if we stubbornly insist that our kids "do so because we said so" without taking their feelings into consideration, they're likely to rebel big time. By taking their opinion into consideration, explaining the rationale behind seemingly arbitrary rules, our kids will learn to accept that mom and dad have a reason for what they say, and they won't always ask. And if they do, yes, we should have an answer. Even if the answer is only "Because I love you and care about you and this is what I think is best for you." But even that should be used sparingly.

Anyhow, I know many of you will disagree.
Maybe "because I said so" parenting works for some kids.
But for kids who question everything, who are insanely curious about how the world works and need to find order and logic in everything (including, but not limited to, gifted kids), "because I said so" parenting is bound to backfire big time.

I'm especially interested to see if any parents of gifted kids think that because I said so parenting is a good idea. One post that would have been terrific for such a forum.

Last edited by Seraph on Sun, Dec 26 2010, 2:27 pm; edited 1 time in total

yo'ma

Sun, Dec 26 2010, 2:27 pm

When my children (older than yours) ask me why, sometimes I tell them why and sometimes I say, because I said so. When they question why did I say so, I tell them, I have my reasons, but I'm not sharing it with you because you're just going to argue with me and try to change my mind. Children don't always need to know the reason why a parent says something.

Seraph

Sun, Dec 26 2010, 2:30 pm

yo'ma wrote:

I'm curious- how would you feel if all of a sudden someone made a rule that you disagreed with, and when you asked why you were told "Because I said so"? Do kids really deserve less respect than that?

Btw, I do agree that sometimes parents have their reasons that they don't want to share and in cases like that, instead of saying "Because I said so", saying something like "Please trust me that I don't make up rules for no reason. I make rules with yours and the family's best interest in mind, but in this case I don't want to share the reason with you. If you'd like to tell me your feelings about this rule, I'll consider them, but ultimately the decision is mine."

yOungM0mmy

Sun, Dec 26 2010, 2:31 pm

I think there has to be a healthy balance. It's the same as Torah - there are eidim and mishpatim, which make logical sense, and then there are Chukim - do it "Because I said so". And that's a fundamental part of Kabbalas Ol, Judaism, and life.
Of course, you can not run your child's life as a tyrant, expecting them to jump as and when you say. The only way they learn and develop any thinking process, intelligence and independence is by questioning and receiving answers that make sense. But there comes a point where a child has to understand - Do it, because I said so. Either I will give you an explanation later, or I won't, but now, you MUST do it, just because I said so. And even more so, if in general you do respect your child, then he will accept that there are times he just has to listen without arguing for an explanation, and he will respect you for that, rather than it causing him to rebel later on.
And I think that that is a vital lesson which kids MUST learn. I personally know of a family, where the youngest boy has a major problem with this, and with understanding that certain behaviours just do not fly, even if you don't want to do whatever, and even if you don't see the problem with it. You do it, because that is the way to behave. He has no problem having a temper tantrum and hitting other people, even strangers, in other people's homes, in school, at the therapist, etc. and he is 12. He uses this to wrap his mother around his little finger, so that she is scared to tell him "Do it, because I said so" because she knows he will fly off the handle in public, and become uncontrollable, doing real physical damage to people and things around him. Obviously this is an extreme case, but somehow, he never developed that acceptance that he is not in charge, and others do know better than him, and sometimes a KID HAS JUST GOT TO LISTEN. If he's 20 or even 40, and his boss said do something, will he challenge it and argue and sulk? Or do we all accept that sometimes in life we have to do something even if we don't want to or think it makes sense or is necessary.
It's great that you talk to your child as an adult, explain things, treat him as a human being, and respect him. But I think by not teaching him this lesson of Kabbalas Ol and respecting authority, you are doing him a great disservice, both in Judaism and in life.

Seraph

Sun, Dec 26 2010, 2:38 pm

But youngmommy, we're NOT Hashem. Hashem absolutely knows what is best and what our neshama needs to grow, etc. We're human. We have emotions that get mixed in to our rules sometimes, so comparing our arbitrary "because I said so" rules to chukim is fallacious.

Chukim DO have a reason. Its to grow closer to Hashem. Arbitrary parent rules don't usually have that reason.

And when it comes to disciplining, explaining to your kids why you make a rule doesn't mean they can decide if they don't want to listen. You explain that hitting hurts and thats why we don't hit, so if your kid hits anyhow, sure, discipline. Kids need discipline, absolutely!
Explaining rules doesn't mean that your kid has to like them. But at least they know they're not arbitrary.
and yes, discipline!

AlwaysGrateful

Sun, Dec 26 2010, 2:39 pm

I don't have time to argue with the theory right now, but what does this mean practically? What if your reasoning for "You need to go to bed at 8:00, not at midnight" is that "Mommy and Daddy need some time together, and I need some 'me' time too"? What if your reasoning for why you don't want your teen out driving is because 'I don't trust your driving/judgement right now'"?

You're a parent, not a coworker. You say that G-d is the only one that is allowed to make rules. But we have parents so that we understand G-d. Sometimes G-d makes rules that make no sense to us. And l'havdil, sometimes we make rules that make no sense to our children.

I have a toddler right now. He's bright, yes. But I'm supposed to compromise with him on all of the rules because he doesn't think my reasons are good ones?

I'm scared to see the result of that type of parenting.

Seraph

Sun, Dec 26 2010, 2:42 pm

I never said compromise on all rules. I dont think most rules should be compromised on. But if a kid does have an issue with a rule, then you can take their feelings into consideration and then decide if the rule should remain as is or if maybe it wasn't a good rule to begin with.

Btw, in my opinion "I don't trust your driving" and "I need me time" are ok rules, even if someone doesn't like it.

gryp

Sun, Dec 26 2010, 2:42 pm

Seraph wrote:

Quote:

I think Seraph's got a point.

I think that by not being insistent of our own kavod that as parents we deserve, we allow our children to come to the conclusion by themselves that we truly do deserve respect.

And I think that there are ways to demand respect without doing the "because I said so," "because I'm the mother and you're not," and "because you're too little." A parent should give respect to model the kind of behavior expected from the child.

AlwaysGrateful

Sun, Dec 26 2010, 2:44 pm

yOungM0mmy wrote:

If he's 20 or even 40, and his boss said do something, will he challenge it and argue and sulk? Or do we all accept that sometimes in life we have to do something even if we don't want to or think it makes sense or is necessary.

Yes.

Life doesn't work like that. It's great to teach kids to question. But if you're driving on a deserted road, and you're going fifteen miles over the speed limit, and a cop pulls you over for speeding, and you tell him that the explanation for speeding doesn't make sense on this road because there were no other cars, it's completely straight, etc....

Then you've probably grown up with this type of parenting.

I think it's wrong for parents to never offer an explanation, especially when asked for one. But I think it's important to sometimes just say, "Because I asked you to do it." I think it's important to teach some respect for authority. Nothing wrong with politely questioning, under certain circumstances, but if there's no answer, the authority still stands.

Seraph

Sun, Dec 26 2010, 2:46 pm

AlwaysGrateful wrote:

Sometimes G-d makes rules that make no sense to us. And l'havdil, sometimes we make rules that make no sense to our children.

Make no sense to us is the key phrase here.
Hashem's rules always make sense- He doesn't make chukim arbitrarily. We don't always know the reason. but you betcha there was a reason for chukim.

We, on the other hand, sometimes DO make arbitrary rules. Even if you don't want to share with your kids the reason you make a certain rule, you still should have a reason and make sure that at least it makes sense to you, and wasn't a spur of the moment, not thought out- decision.

Make any sense?

cubbie

Sun, Dec 26 2010, 2:47 pm

I strongly disagree with you on this one (I was going to comment on the other thread, but hey you've started the spin off so I'll comment here)
Parenting should not fall into a category of "because I said so" parenting or giving reasons parenting. Either style is dangerous, and not good for either parent or child. There needs to be a balance. I am very for giving children respect, but at the same time I'm for setting rules and boundaries, and I don't believe that they contradict. There are times that reasons can and should be given and there are times that using parental authority is appropriate and essential.
Children need to learn that parents make the rules and they need to understand which are and aren't negotiable and if that lesson is never taught at home you are creating problems.
What happens to a child who is always given reasons at home and is never told just because when he's at another home? Does he start negotiating with the other parents rules. Say it's lunchtime and everyone's sat at the table and he picks up his plate to go to the sofa to eat and the mother says, "I'm sorry Yanky in this house we just eat at the table" Does he reply "but I don't need to because I am able to eat without making a mess" etc etc
I believe that our role as parents is to prepare our children for the real world, and giving a child too much responsibility when they are too young or not ready doesn't do this. Teaching them that sometimes we do things because that is the rule, period, is also a lesson in life.
The older the child, the more answers he will have to all those reasons, and the more he'll defy, because he thinks he knows better. And not teaching that sometimes they have to accept the rule without reason, is very dangerous territory and will achieve that opposite of what the parent is trying to convey. It will result in a kid who has zero respect and an answer for everything.

flowerpower

Sun, Dec 26 2010, 2:47 pm

I agree with gr and others. There are times that you show the kid I am boss and that is why you have to listen to me. I don't always have to argue with you why we do things because we can go on and on and on and we will start argueing whether it makes sense.... If I tell my son it's time to go in and put on pjs and he argues that other kids younger then him are still outside-too bad. I told you that it's time to come in, you drop the ball and come in.(I do give warnings to that example but you get the picture).

Seraph

Sun, Dec 26 2010, 2:49 pm

AlwaysGrateful wrote:

yOungM0mmy wrote:

Speed rules weren't made up arbitrarily. They're meant for your safety and the safety of possible other people on the road, and they apply all the time. Even if you don't agree its necessary, there still is a reason behind it.

gryp

Sun, Dec 26 2010, 2:50 pm

One thing though- I told my kids that if there is ever an emergency, they must obey me right away and not even ask a single question. I told them that I will tell them that it is in an emergency and then they will know that it is time to do whatever I say without questioning and immediately.

Because somebody I know was taking her little kids hiking up a mountain and saw two bears just a few feet away, and while she's trying to get them back down the trail to the car, they're tantrumming that they want to keep going till the top. Rolling Laughter

Fox

Sun, Dec 26 2010, 2:52 pm

I'm also not a fan of "because I said so."

I was criticized for my approach a great deal by my DDs' school, where they strongly believe that giving children any kind of explanation today will lead to ham sandwiches tomorrow. However, I strongly believe that it is the difference between giving kids nutritious food and junk food. Junk food may quiet their hunger in the short run, but it does neither the parent nor the child any good in the long run.

Think about what "Because I said so" really teaches: it sends the message that the parent is unable or unwilling to teach the child anything. Junk food, pure and simple.

As Seraph says, it also assembles the ingredients for disaster when kids are older. As a mother of teenagers, I can assure everyone that there are many times when I say "no" to some plan or idea. But I am careful to do two things: first, I listen completely and never say "no" immediately -- no matter how obvious it is that "no" will be my eventual answer; and second, I make a point of emphasizing that I am making a decision based on my role as the parent, not because I'm a Navi. My decision may be flawed or even plain wrong, but my kids must respect my decision because of my role, not because I'm necessarily right.

I also agree completely that there is nothing incompatible with such an approach as part of a Torah life. We are not obligated to enjoy or even agree with the rules Hashem has set down for us; we are obligated to do or follow them. Yet Hashem gives us free will; He treats us with respect even while giving us a derech for our lives.

Personally, I generally perceive parents who are big into the "because I said so" approach as very insecure about their parenting. Would you speak that way to your spouse? It's such an unpleasant, belligerent way to communicate. Why not show our kids the kind of consideration and respect we would like them to show us?

Mom: Moishe, could you please come to the kitchen?

Moishe: Aw, Ma! Do I have to? Why?

Mom: I need some help putting away groceries, but if you're in the middle of something, why not come in five minutes. Could you do that?

Isn't that the way we would prefer to be treated? Not, "drop whatever you're doing this second because I said so," but "I could demand your assistance, but I'm asking for it like a mentch, cognizant that you might be busy."

I've used this approach for years, and it works like a charm. It also makes it easier to make demands when there really is an emergency. My kids know that "right now" is not about my ego; it means they are really needed urgently. I know all kids are different, and I'm sure there are kids out there who might not respond well to this method, but I really see the benefits of it when I see how respectful my teenagers are.

Seraph

Sun, Dec 26 2010, 2:53 pm

Can I just point out- explaining a rule doesn't mean not enforcing rules. Exclamation

cubbie

Sun, Dec 26 2010, 2:56 pm

Seraph wrote:

Can I just point out- explaining a rule doesn't mean not enforcing rules. Exclamation

Yes but a child also needs to be able to accept rules without explanation if you wish for him to be able to be able to survive in the outside world - which he won't be able to do if every rule is explained.

Seraph

Sun, Dec 26 2010, 2:57 pm

GR wrote:

Totally agreed.
You can tell a kid "I have a reason, I can't explain now, but if you want I can explain it to you later. Now I need you to listen to me."

observer

Sun, Dec 26 2010, 2:58 pm

I hear your point.

However, I think one thing you said is actually the opposite way. When you tell a child not to do something and you DO give a reason, then if they feel the reason doesn't apply to them, they feel they can disobey it. For example, "Don't use a knife because I don't want you to get hurt" and the child feels "Well, I wont get hurt so I can use it". but what if he really does not know how to use it safely? He may think he does but you may know better.

However, if the child knows that that is the rule even if he disagrees with it, then he knows he has to follow it.

I'm not saying I agree with "Cuz I said so" parenting, but I think that making the rule dependant on a reason is very subjective.

Seraph

Sun, Dec 26 2010, 2:59 pm

cubbie wrote:

Seraph wrote:

Can I just point out- explaining a rule doesn't mean not enforcing rules. Exclamation

The thing you're not getting is that not every rule needs to be explained. If you explain a rule when asked, they learn to accept that you have a reason for the rules you make, and don't ask all the time.

If you had a boss that made up arbitrary rules that made no sense all the time, would you stick in that job? I know I wouldn't.

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